Wikipedia:Featured article candidates

For the criteria to become a featured article, see Wikipedia:Featured article criteria.

For the similar process page for good articles, see Wikipedia:Good article nominations.

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This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page. Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ. Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time. The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, David Fuchs and FrB.TG—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators: actionable objections have not been resolved; consensus for promotion has not been reached; insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or a nomination is unprepared. It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support. Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as  Done and  Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed. An editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time, but two nominations are allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback. Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere. A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{Article history}}. Table of Contents – This page:

Featured content: Featured articles ← Featured lists Featured pictures Featured topics Featured article candidates (FAC) Featured article criteria Featured article log Featured article statistics Featured article review (FAR) Former featured articles Unreviewed featured articles/2020 Today's featured article (TFA): This month's queue About Today's featured article Recent TFAs and statistics Current TFA requests Potential TFA requests TFA oddities Most viewed TFAs Featured articles yet to appear as TFA Script to track TFA recent changes Featured article tools: Mentoring for FAC Nominators of featured articles promoted Recent changes to featured articles Random featured article

Nominating How to nominate an article Nomination procedure Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived. Place {{subst:FAC}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article and save the page. From the FAC template, click on the red "initiate the nomination" link or the blue "leave comments" link. You will see pre-loaded information; leave that text. If you are unsure how to complete a nomination, please post to the FAC talk page for assistance. Below the preloaded title, complete the nomination page, sign with ~~~~, and save the page. Copy this text: {{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/name of nominated article/archiveNumber}} (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead. Commenting, etc Commenting, supporting and opposing Supporting and opposing To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process. To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria. To oppose a nomination, write *'''Object''' or *'''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, a coordinator may disregard it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive. To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or objecting, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice. For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple *'''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use a semicolon to bold a subheading; this creates accessibility problems. Specifically, a semi-colon creates an HTML description list with a description term list item. As a result, assistive technology is unable to identify the text in question as a heading and thus provide navigation to it, and screen readers will make extra list start/item/end announcements. If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so, either after the reviewer's signature, or by interspersing their responses in the list provided by the reviewer. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, or add graphics to comments from other editors. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.

Nominations

Merchant's House Museum

Nominator(s): Epicgenius (talk) 15:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

This article is about a historic house in New York City, built in the 1830s for the Tredwell family, at a time when the surrounding neighborhood was an upscale residential area. The house remained in the family for almost a century, even as most of the family's wealthy neighbors moved away. After the last child died, the house became a museum in 1936, narrowly avoiding demolition. Despite being a relatively low-profile museum even today, the Merchant's House Museum was one of NYC's first-ever official landmarks, and you can still see many of the family's possessions on display there. Amazingly, unlike literally every other 19th-century residence in NYC, the house still retains its original design as well.

This page became a Good Article this June after a GAN review by several editors, for which I am very grateful. After some recent copyedits by Mox Eden, which I greatly appreciate as well, I think the page is up to FA quality. I look forward to all comments and feedback. Epicgenius (talk) 15:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Seattle Kraken

Nominator(s): XR228 (talk) 06:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

The Seattle Kraken are the second-newest team in the National Hockey League, having been founded in 2018 and playing their first game in 2021. Within their three seasons, they have fared not-so-decently, qualifying for the playoffs only once. I nominated this article for FA a couple months back, but it didn't get enough reviews, so I'm hoping we can avoid that this time. Thanks. XR228 (talk) 06:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Buangkok MRT station

Nominator(s): ZKang123 (talk) 04:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

This is my second nomination of the article, about an MRT station which remained closed even when the line opened. After some lobbying by residents, MPs and grassroots leaders to open the station, including a rare form of public protest by putting up "white elephant" cardboard cutouts, the station was eventually opened. Previously there were concerns raised about the wording and phrases of certain portions of the article, and I had put it up to the GOCE for a copyedit. As the semester ends, I also have more time to work on any potential issues that might arises during the FAC review process. ZKang123 (talk) 04:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

1920 Xalapa earthquake

Nominator(s): Dora the Axe-plorer (explore) 14:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

This article is about a deadly and destructive earthquake in Mexico, known for its devastating mudslides which contributed to the losses. It had an estimated magnitude of 6.3 to 6.4 and occurred within the Trans-Mexican Volcanic Belt, a region experiencing extensional tectonics, where normal faults produce seismic activity. This event may have been due to shallow normal faulting, the kind of faulting observed in other earthquakes along the belt. Dora the Axe-plorer (explore) 14:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Don't use fixed px size

• File:Templo_de_Teocelo,_Veracruz,_terremoto_1920.png: what is the author's date of death? Ditto File:Earthquake_Isoseismal_map_terremoto_1920_Xalapa_pdf.pdf, File:Saltillo_Lafragua_church,_terremoto_1920.png, File:Landslide_scars_on_Cerro_Colorado_in_Patlanalá,_Puebla.png, File:Enríquez_Street,_Xalapa,_terremoto_1920.png, File:Cosautlán,_Veracruz_1920_terremoto.png. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Note the original publication does not identify the authors in the front pages so I attributed to Instituto Geológico de México, 1922. They are in the public domain according to Alamy although the uploaded files are screenshots of the report. At least one of the authors I found via secondary source is Teodoro Flores d. 1955. The other may have been Horacio Camacho, d 2015.

Alamy entries:

• [1]
• [2]
• [3]
• [4]
• [5]
• [6]

Dora the Axe-plorer (explore) 06:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

They are in the public domain in which country according to Alamy?

They are currently tagged as life+70 - if the likely authors died in 1955 and 2015, that tag wouldn't apply yet. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:20, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

That I'm unable to decipher, I'm checking with Alamy over the matter. Dora the Axe-plorer (explore) 00:41, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

There are seven other works uploaded by Panorami bot in 2010 and 2016 from the 1922 source under CC-BY-SA-3.0. More are found under this cat Dora the Axe-plorer (explore) 01:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Knives Out

Nominator(s): DAP (talk) 08:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

What do you get when you conceive an Agatha Christie-inspired mystery with an all-star cast, led by a British actor playing a Southern accent that's too cartoonish to be accurate, but is kinda sexy anyways? If you guessed Knives Out, then you are quite the gambling person. This Rian Johnson-directed film follows a flamboyant private detective's (Daniel Craig) investigation of the death of a bestselling author (played by the late Christopher Plummer) in a story critiquing class and race in modern American society. Many thanks to LEvalyn for their GA review, Aoba47 for their peer review, and Baffle gab1978 for undertaking my copyedit request! DAP 💅 08:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The True Record

Nominator(s):  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 19:00, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

This article is about a short-lived magazine that emerged in the early days of the Republic of China. Though it lasted only seventeen issues, The True Record has been considered one of the most important magazines of its era. This article offers a comprehensive review of the English literature, as well as several Chinese-language sources (and one in Japanese), offering the most comprehensive review of this publication available. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 19:00, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Generalissima

• Marking myself down for a review later. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 06:38, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Gerald Durrell

Nominator(s): Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

This article is about one of the most influential people in the history of conservation biology. Durrell became famous for his books, and used the money from them to found Jersey Zoo. As recently as the mid-1970s there was still opposition at the highest level of the zoo world to the idea that zoos could help with conservation of endangered species. Durrell's work is one of the main reasons that that's no longer the case. One point that reviewers will notice: the article depends heavily on a single source: the only book-length biography of Durrell, by Douglas Botting. There are other reminiscences, and I've cited some material to them, but they are essentially books of anecdotes rather than of encyclopedic material. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Gerald_Durrell,_Askania_Nova_(cropped).jpg: source link is dead, and I note the uploader has had a number of uploads deleted for permissions issues - is there anything to confirm the release of this image? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

  Nothing that I can find. The picture is from Durrell's time in Askania Nova, in the mid-1980s; I have the book of that trip and this picture is not in that chapter, so it's at least possible that it was taken separately as claimed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

UC

Saving a spot. 09:51, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• Gerald Malcolm Durrell, OBE (7 January 1925 – 30 January 1995) was a British naturalist : as MOS:COMMA warns, don't let other punctuation distract from the need for a comma. As we've got a comma before OBE, we need one after it as well -- in this case, after the brackets. However, a perfectly acceptable alternative, which plays better with the previews you get when mousing over a link, would be to remove the preceding comma instead.

  Comma removed.

• Per WP:INFONAT, I think it would be worth clarifying his British nationality in the infobox, as it is not obvious from his place of birth and death.

  Added "British" to the infobox. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• animal collecting trips: consider animal-collecting trips per MOS:HYPHEN, but it's arguable either way.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• he married Jacquie Rasen: better as he married Jacquie (née Rasen)?

  I think this is better as is, unless you feel strongly about it -- she was Jacquie Rasen at the time they married, and although I know the locution is common, just using the first name in this way always strikes me as odd. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  Not a problem -- to me, it's equally odd to use a name that became wrong through the act we're describing, but there's pros and cons either way and this is very much a matter for editorial taste. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• In 1957 he visited the Cameroons for the third time, and on his return attempted to persuade Bournemouth and Poole town councils to start local zoos...: a very long sentence. It reads better if cut in two after zoos here.

  Done. Long sentences are one of my besetting sins. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• continued to mine his past for autobiographical material: I think MOS:CLICHE applies here.

  Trimmed, though I'm not sure if that flows well now. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• He received an OBE in 1982: this is me being very pedantic, and probably more so than even most HQRS, but OBE is technically an institutiona personal title. The Gazette uses "appointed as an Officer of the Order of the British Empire" vel sim.

  I used "became"; does that work? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  It does, though I'd still be tempted to spell it out, as many people will (mis)read OBE as "Order of the British Empire". UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think I'll leave it as is, if that's OK -- I rarely object to pedanticism but the technically correct formulations are a bit unwieldy and will surprise most readers. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:46, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  Not a problem. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:13, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Durrell's father insisted that Louisa conform with conventional expectations, but she was more independent than most women of the era. She spent much time with her cook, learning to make curries, and had trained as a nurse.: the tone here just feels a little off to me: a bit like it was written by a Victorian rather than about one. Anyway, is all this really that unusual in this time period? This is the 1920s, not the 1820s -- flapper culture is in full swing, and people like Virginia Woolf, Emmeline Pankhurst and Jane Ellen Harrison are getting well into middle and old age, and of course many women worked as nurses and in traditionally masculine roles during the First World War. I need a bit of convincing that having a trade and chatting to the servants was really all that exceptional.

  I think the Anglo-Indian (that's always the adjective I've seen, regardless of the ethnicities) community in India at the time was more determinedly British than the British themselves -- shades of Passage to India and Burmese Days. That's certainly the impression that Botting gives: he says of Louisa "As an Anglo-Indian, she was less mindful of her exalted status than the average white memsahib who passed her time in the subcontinent in a state of aloof exile. As a young woman she had defied convention and trained as a nurse, and had even scrubbed floors (unheard of for a white woman in India then)." Botting goes on to mention talking to the servants and learning to cook curries. Haag quotes an interview with a woman who knew the Durrells when she was a girl on Corfu in the thirties; she is quite stiffly disapproving of them, saying the Durrells did not behave as an English family in a colonial environment were expected to behave. I don't think Botting is an expert on Anglo-Indian social mores, but it does seem reasonable to me that the Durrells were not typical of their community. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  No quarrel with that, but I think we need to make a bit more of it clear. At the moment, we suggest that most women of the 1920s were not independent, would not have trained as nurses and would have had nothing to do with the servants, which is hard to wear. It sounds as though Botting contextualises this in a very specific aristocratic Anglo-Indian context, which we don't (yet). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  Reworded to make that clearer. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Anglo-English: something is awry here. "Anglo-Irish" would be the obvious correction, but doesn't make much sense -- it sounds as though we mean "English parents living in India" or "English parents of a certain social class".

  This was just absent-mindedness; I've switched it to Anglo-Indian, which is what I meant. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• the household included an ayah (a nursemaid) who helped raise the children: I think it's worth clarifying that an ayah is specifically an Indian servant, which helps explain the (presumably European?) Catholic governess.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• his father bought a house in Dulwich, near where both the older boys were at school: at Dulwich College? If so, worth including, I think: that's quite an elite school which says something about the social standing of the family.

  Lawrence was at St. Olave's Grammar School (where I went myself, as it happens); I don't know where Leslie went, and Botting doesn't give more details. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• while out with his ayah one day: italicise ayah consistently.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Gerald was scarcely affected, having had little emotional connection to his father: perhaps more to the point, he was only three years old!

  Well, yes, but Botting's point is that the elder Lawrence did the Victorian father routine and only saw Gerald for half-an-hour a day. Botting quotes Durrell: "I must confess my father's demise had little or no effect on me, since he was a remote figure", followed by some minor reminiscences and Durrell saying he was closer to his mother and his ayah. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think that latter detail would be nice to include: at the moment, we present this almost as a deficiency on Gerald's part (as if he was himself aloof or disconnected), rather than as a natural consequence of Lawrence's parenting. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  Added. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:34, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  I see It was usual for Anglo-Indian parents to see little of their children a little further up, and Gerald was scarcely affected, having had been much closer to his mother and his ayah than his father. Those are both much weaker than what you said here, about Lawrence having chosen only to see Gerald for half an hour a day, and the latter still places the weight on the child rather than the father. Do we have the sourcing to say that Lawrence chose to be barely involved in Gerald's life? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think so. Botting says he "by all accounts was a decent but rather distant and often absent figure to his children, for his work as an engineer took him across the length and breadth of British India ..." which ascribes the distance more to his work than his inclination. Botting also says "though he was a straightforward servant of empire, he was not an entirely conventional one; he did not live like the British but like the Anglo-Indians, and he resigned from his club when an Oxford-educated Indian doctor he had proposed for membership was blackballed", so I don't think we can say it was conventional Victorian behaviour. Margaret is quoted: "In those days children only saw their parents when they were presented to them at four o'clock for the family tea ... our lives revolved around the nursery and our Hindu ayah and Catholic governess. Gerry would have had more to do with the ayah than we older children did". The half hour is from a quote from Gerald: "I would see him twice a day for half an hour and he would tell me stories about the three bears. I knew he was my daddy but I was on much greater terms of intimacy with Mother and my ayah than with my father." I don't see anything there that speaks to the elder Lawrence's motivations. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  No, indeed -- and we can hardly assume that the four-year-old Gerald was timing these interactions to the minute. I think we do have enough to say that he was often absent, though. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Added. I put this in with the account of his death, which has the slight disadvantage of forcing the sentence into the pluperfect. I could move it earlier, to where I give Lawrence's job, but since the relevance is to his death's effect on Gerald I think it's better there. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• She began to drink: This is a bit of a euphemism: I think we should be more direct. Likewise, later, temporarily freed of her drinking habit is a little on the flowery (and possibly moralising?) side.

  I am hamstrung by Botting's language here. He quotes Durrell, who says his mother began "resorting to the bottle more and more frequently", and then Botting says "Eventually, matters reached a crisis", and quotes Durrell again, with the "nervous breakdown" euphemism. I don't think I can use this to say either that she was an alcoholic or was being treated for alcoholism. I agree with you that Durrell's language is euphemistic, but I don't want to go beyond what he actually says. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  The usual solution here would be to lean into Botting: something like "Durrell later wrote that his mother "began resorting [..."]; in Botting's words, "matters reached a crisis" in 19XX, when..." UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  I found it tricky to navigate between overquoting and over-interpreting but I've had a go at this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• When he was nine he was spanked by his headmaster, and his mother took him away from the school: this I find interesting: it would have been completely normal in those days, and indeed much later. Any indication as to why both Durrell and Louisa reacted so strongly here -- was it simply the last straw?

  I think Louisa spoiled him, and he was unused to school discipline anyway -- at age nine he had not lived through four years of school life, as most children would have, and I imagine he was used to getting his own way. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Lawrence and his partner, Nancy, moved in with Louisa and Gerald at about the end of 1934 when the friends they had been living with, George and Pam Wilkinson, emigrated to Corfu: clarify the antecedent here.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• a house in Perama: in looking up a potential ILL, I discovered that there are (or were) two villages on Corfu by that name: I think this one is the most likely candidate, as the second wasn't known by that name until the 1960s.

  That seems to be the right one -- not far south of Corfu town fits with the description. Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Greek-British doctor: endash here, I think, as he was jointly Greek and British, rather than being primarily British but also sort-of Greek (as in "African-American" or "Swiss-German").

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Stephanides spent a half-day every week with Gerald, walking in the countryside with him: could cut with him as implied by the previous clause.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Henri Fabre: seems to be fairly universally Jean Henri Fabre in sources: Henri Fabre is the aviator.

  Done, with a hyphen rather than a space as that's what our article uses; no objection to changing it to a space if that's the usual form. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• His call-up for the war came in late 1942, but he was exempted from military duty on medical grounds: was this because of bad sinuses? Seems a rather light ailment on which to reject someone from military service, given the pressing situation.

  Durrell tells an amusing story about this; it sounds like his sinuses were truly spectacularly bad, but he also gives a conversation with the doctor who exempted him in which he admitted to the doctor that he didn't want to fight and the doctor said that was fine by him. Since Durrell was sometimes faithful to narrative interest rather than accuracy in his recollections I decided to skip this detail in the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• He was given the option of working in a munitions factory or finding work on a farm: I would clarify, here, who gave him the option: it sounds like he was being conscripted to do this?

  Apparently the way it worked was that after the medical, one received a letter giving the results, and it was this letter that gave him the options. I've rephrased to make this clearer. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Durrell's biographer, Botting, says Durrell broke his hand while separating the African buffalo calf from its mother, but in Durrell's own autobiographical account it happens while caging the gnu: we've chosen Durrell over Botting here, which is a little dangerous: people's autobiographies are frequently inaccurate, for all sorts of reasons. Unless a published source has done the same, I think we need to avoid passing judgement: we can say that he had both tasks, and that the hand was broken, but not discriminate between the two stories of which one broke it.

  Yes, fair; I said above that Durrell's own recollections aren't automatically truthful and I should have been more cautious here. Rephrased. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

More to follow. It's undoubtedly an excellent article, though I must admit that my niggles about the tone remain: I worry that it's just slightly too far towards the sort of writing that Durrell himself would have put out about his own life, rather than a dispassionate encyclopaedic treatment of it. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 22:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Will reply to your points later, but just a quick note to say that as a longtime reader of Durrell's work I shouldn't be surprised that I am writing a little under his influence. When I go through with your points in mind I will see if I can also sweep away some of that tone. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Have now replied to all points; have not yet gone through for tone. I think I'm going to find it hard to spot but will do my best; I'd appreciate any pointers to the problem you can give while you read through. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not a major issue, and I wouldn't want to take away the article's sparkle. I'll go through and pick out the bits where the distinctive voice is strongest. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Re-reading the parts on which I commented yesterday, I think I'll retract what I said about the tone -- maybe thanks to recent edits, it seems to be just about right. Will pick out anything that stands out as I move forward. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• was invited to the zoo to meet the Superintendent, Geoffrey Vevers: good old MOS:PEOPLETITLES - decap superintendent here.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• At the interview, Durrell "prattled on interminably about animals, animal collecting and my own zoo", as he later put it: not totally clear whether he is Durrell or Vevers.

  Made it "as Durrell later put it" -- I'm not too keen on the repetition of "Durrell" but I don't see a less clumsy way to do it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• The extinctions of animals such as the dodo, the passenger pigeon and the quagga appalled him, and he realised that zoos had little interest in addressing the problems of endangered species: I wonder if we're being a little unfair here, particularly with the last part. None of those animals went extinct because of zoos: it's not so much that the zoos were sitting on their hands, as that nobody thought of conservation as something that was within a zoo's remit. It's a bit like someone being appalled that museums are doing nothing to address childhood obesity: the fact that we now believe that zoos should try to stop species from going extinct is in large part a consequence of what Durrell did later.

  I made it "he realised that most zoos considered themselves showplaces for animals, rather than scientific institution which might have a role in addressing the problems of endangered species". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure I've ever seen the word showplace before! Googling around, its primary meaning seems to be a place that is itself to be shown off (i.e., a particularly fancy building), rather than a place whose contents are interesting. Not immediately thinking of a good synonym, but I'm sure you'll be able to. We need a plural on institutions too. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 19:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I'm surprised, but I took a look at an ngram of it vs. showroom, and it does seem to be falling slowly out of use, so perhaps other readers will also not recognize the word. I've rephrased (and fixed the plural). Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• many of whom were unwilling to pass on what they knew in any case, in order to protect their jobs: I think this could be smoother. Suggest cutting "in any case", and rephrasing to make in order less ambiguous (are we saying that, in order to protect their jobs, they refused to help others, or that they refused to help others, even when doing so would have protected their jobs?). It seems like there's two points being made: the staff didn't know very much, and they didn't talk about the little that they knew. Might be clearer to disentangle the two a little more?

  Reworded; I dropped the point about why the staff were unwilling to pass on their knowledge, as presumably it's Durrell's speculation and doesn't really matter anyway. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Looks good (I made some minor CEs here). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 19:56, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Durrell had good friends among the women keepers: in many style guides, "female X" is preferred to "woman X"; the latter reads as antiquated and sometimes patronising (cf. Woman police constable). Here, there's the unfortunate possibility that a "woman keeper" is like a "lion keeper"...

  Changed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• a woman in London that he refers to in his writings only as Juliet: consider "Juliet" per MOS:WORDSASWORDS, and to be clear that this might be a pseudonym.

  Good idea; done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• in a boat acquired from the Germans because of the war: a few things here. Which Germans? As written, this phrase doesn't quite mean what it should: we've said that he acquired it because of the war, but surely the war was the reason these Germans lost it (was it commandeered/captured/confiscated?), presumably at least two years earlier, rather than why Durrell got it?

  I've cut those details; I originally included names and descriptions of the ships they took for these early expeditions, but cut them to reduce the article's length. This was left over and I don't think is needed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• learning pidgin: consider "the local dialect": pidgin covers a lot of mixed languages in a lot of places, and is often seen as derogatory.

  I changed it to "Cameroonian pidgin"; as far as I can tell it's the local name. See Cameroonian Pidgin English, which gives other names "for what Cameroonians call Cameroon Pidgin English", and cites linguistics texts from 2008 and 2017 that use that name. I know what you mean about the negative connotations of the word, but it wasn't a dialect, technically. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Good compromise -- likewise, I see your point about calling it a "dialect" (sans army or navy). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 12:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• the return to Mamfe required sixty carriers to bring them all: is a carrier a person or a box?

  It's a person. I was trying to avoid both "porters" with its associations with Great White Hunters on safari, and "native carriers", which would be unambiguous but might be the best solution despite a risk that "native" would offend some readers. Would "local carriers" work? Or "on the return to Mamfe he had to hire sixty carriers to ..."? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  How about "sixty people to carry..."? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 12:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, done, though I realised that there is a reference in the previous sentence that also had to be changed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:21, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• while he was there a hunter brought in an angwantibo, one of the animals he was keenest to obtain, as he knew London Zoo were looking to acquire them: lots of hes here. Suggest untangling a bit: did Durrell or the hunter really want to obtain an angwantibo?

  It was Durrell; fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• On which -- we are not well served for images of these creatures! Did you consider this drwaing at any point? The black and white photo doesn't really do the animal great justice, but then I can see a strong argument for a photograph over a drawing in principle.

  I did look at it but I think photos are of more use to a reader if they exist, and the angwantibo picture is quite clear, though it would be better in colour. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  A thought: how about using a multiple image template to have them next to each other? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 12:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Done. I like how it looks, but I might have made it too wide at 400px; let me know if it looks odd on your screen. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I've made a tweak-y edit here, please revert if not an improvement (size to 300px and a footer instead of two captions, which means that we have a greater proportion of image overall). UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 19:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

More to follow. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks; mostly fixed, with a couple of queries above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

• Cecil Webb, a well-established animal collector, arrived in the Cameroons intending to catch angwantibo shortly afterwards: as far as I can tell, the plural of angwantibo is angwantibos (see e.g. here. p. 209.

  Changed -- I did check, and Durrell and Botting both independently use "angwantibo" as the plural, but as the form with the "s" is accepted that's the less surprising choice. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• he considered Durrell and Yealland to be amateurs: this was, strictly at least, true. Is there a better way of putting it that comes closer to the intended "incompetents"?

  I'm not sure it's strictly true -- they had negotiated with zoos beforehand, and although the zoos would not give them money up front, they were doing it for pay. As you say it's the connotation I'm looking for. Botting's wording is that Webb considered them "novices and upstarts"; I think "incompetent" is a bit too strong to be sourced to that. I've made it "inexperienced and amateurish"; does that work? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Works very well. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• The expedition had been successful but not profitable; it had absorbed half of Durrell's inheritance: I assume this is after any income from selling the animals? Perhaps worth reminding us how much money we're talking about here (I think it would be a routine calculation as permitted by WP:OR).

  Yes, after selling the animals. I agree re the routine calculation, but it seems simpler to just repeat the inheritance amount: "half of Durrell's inheritance of ₤3,000". I didn't repeat the inflation conversion since there's one in the very next sentence with a simple ratio to this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Sounds good. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Ken Smith agreed to partner Durrell: not sure I've seen that verb used in that way (rather than transitively: "to partner someone with someone else"): be Durrell's partner, unless I've just missed a common usage?

  Changed to "join"; I think it's a valid usage but as elsewhere I think if it sounds odd to you it will sound odd to others. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• where the Fon, Achirimbi II, the king of the area: this isn't quite phrased right. If Fon means 'king' (more or less), we don't want to then gloss it with "the king of the area". Could do Achrimbi II, the local Fon ('king')?

  The Fon's name is not really needed inline, since I don't use it later in the article (Durrell and Botting never use it at all; he's just "the Fon" throughout.) I've made it "the Fon (the local ruler)" and added a footnote giving his name. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• augmenting what he was obtaining from the hunts he went on: again, a lot of "he"s here. "From his own hunts"? Even then, might not be clear if "he" is Durrell or the Fon.

  Clarified, I hope. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• the two men emptied it over the course of the evening: consider drank or finished: this is slightly figurative language that might confuse a non-native speaker (are we talking about some kind of libation ritual?)

  I made it "drank". This is one of those "tone" moments you mentioned; for lifelong Durrell readers such as myself, the night that Durrell meets and drinks with the Fon is a memorable event, and I mentally slipped into a literary rather than an encyclopedic state of mind. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• requiring an emergency trip to Bemenda: where was that?

  Forty miles away; I added that. It was a five-hour trip in the Fon's kitcar, and Durrell would have been at serious risk of death if they had not obtained the antiserum, but I cut the details as being colourful and not strictly necessary. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• They knew that obtaining one of the high-value animals would immediately resolve their financial problems: well, not immediately -- they would have to get the thing safely back to the UK first.

  Yes, fair enough. Cut. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• As they came ashore Durrell and Smith were already planning another trip: possibly getting a bit poetic here. Literally as they were stepping off the boat, or around the time of their return?

  Almost literally: Durrell tells the press about the plan as they are interviewed while docked at Liverpool, just before getting off the boat. But I agree it's not necessary to be so poetic, so rephrased. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Most of the animals survived the journey, but the last flying squirrel died just one day from docking at Liverpool on 25 August: didn't we have dozens of these things a few paragraphs ago? We've been pretty cavalier about what sounds like a very dark day in flying-squirrel history.

  Yes indeed. The story of these flying squirrels (known now as flying mice, though that wasn't true back then, I believe) is one of the more memorable episodes from the book of the trip. He had 42 of them, if I recall correctly and I could easily expand this section to tell more of the story -- capturing them was an adventure, and then finding something they would eat was difficult. They eventually showed a willingness to eat avocados and Durrell had to persuade the ship's cook to give him some of the avocados that the ship's captain had brought on board for his own diet. They died in twos and threes on the trip home, despite his best efforts. Again I omitted this for length reasons. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  It does seem like we have two different stories here -- the trip home was pretty safe if you were a wildebeest, but pretty deadly if you were a flying squirrel. Perhaps something like "Most of the animals survived they journey, but all 42 of the flying squirrels died during it, the last just one day..."? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:35, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• the expedition had brought back several species never previously seen in Britain: would be nice if we could specify some of these.

  Botting says "London [Zoo] took some of the rarities of special scientific interest, many of them never before seen alive in Britain, including the hairy frog and a large number of insects". Then there's a quote from a news story citing the hairy frog as "the first creature of its kind ever to be brought into this country". Durrell caught a hairy frog on the previous trip, though perhaps it didn't survive the trip home -- Durrell doesn't mention it in The Overloaded Ark; Botting's details come from Durrell's diary. I think this is enough to mention the frog, and have done so, though now I wonder if a reader will recall that the previous trip mentioned the same animal. Perhaps it would be better to delete the earlier mention? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:12, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• where he visited Tiny McTurk at his ranch: ...who?

  The McTurks, as far as I can tell, were a well-known British family in the area -- googling "mcturk guiana" (or "guyana") finds a lot of references. I think the McTurks are likely to be notable, but perhaps this is not the place to worry about that, so I've cut the reference. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:12, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  I was thinking you would give some kind of explanation like "a local British landowner" or similar? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:36, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• We have a long quote from Jacquie Wolfenden in the paragraph of her introduction. I think it could be better integrated into the prose of the paragraph, but we certainly need to be clear about when she wrote this and in what context. It looks from the citation that it's a quote from her 1967 autobiography?

  Yes, now attributed directly. I like the quote and I think paraphrasing it would rob it of its emotional directness. Do you think it should be shortened, then? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:12, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• David Attenborough, another rising figure in the world of natural history: was this quite right in 1950? He would only just have been out of the Navy and not yet properly working at the BBC; I think his first natural history programme was in 1953.

  Attenborough's comment was later; the wording was clumsy in that it wasn't intended to imply that Attenborough made the comment at the time. Checking Botting's citations I see in fact it was much later, so I've cut it; we don't need to have Attenborough's affirmation that Durrell was right. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• she was free to marry without her parents permission: apostrophe needed here. I was surprised to discover that this remained true until the late 1980s.

  Apostrophe added. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• The Durrells began their marriage in a tiny flat in Margaret's house in Bournemouth: perhaps remind us who Margaret was; it's been a while.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Jacquie joined him there and began "learning about animal keeping the hard way", helping to feed and care for the animals.: quotes always need to be attributed inline: whose words are these?

  Attributed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Jacquie knew Gerald was a marvellous storyteller: how about considered G. a marvellous storyteller, which is verifiable, whereas the current formulation is not?

  Yes, my own biases coming through there. Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• The fee was a welcome fifteen guineas: how much was that? I would cut a welcome for tone.

  Cut, and an equivalent given. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• equivalent to ₤120.00 in 2023: don't think we want the decimals here (false precision).

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• to make the book entertaining and humorous rather than tediously factual: I don't think any writer wants to make their work tedious, though I know I usually manage it with my FAC reviews.

  Durrell did actually say "I have tried, firstly, not to be boring", but I take your point. Changed to "simply factual". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• The completed typescript, titled The Overloaded Ark, was posted to Faber & Faber with a covering letter mentioning that Lawrence was Gerald's brother: better the other way, I think: "that Gerald was Lawrence's brother" (because F&F would have known Lawrence, but not Gerald).

  Yes, done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Curtis Brown, Lawrence's own agent, in late 1952. They read...: is there a way to do this so that Curtis Brown doesn't sound like a person's name, and so that we're not surprised by the plural they? Get the word agency in there somewhere?

  It was actually Spencer Curtis Brown, son of the Curtis Brown who founded the agency. I wrote it referring to the agency but it's confusing, I agree. I've tried to finesse this by giving Spencer's full name and removing the link to a footnote. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:59, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• a galley proof: I had to look this up: wikilink at the very least, I think.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:59, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• sold to Rupert Hart-Davis: who was that? Incidentally, do we mean the man, or the company?

  This is tricky for the reverse reason to the issue with Spencer Curtis Brown. Our article, Rupert Hart-Davis, is about the man; the publishing house is Rupert Hart-Davis Ltd, but the "Ltd" is rarely used in discussing the publisher, so it can be confusing. I've linked it and added "a London publisher" (though technically "London" is uncited, if that matters), but "publisher" can also refer to either the man or his company. At least it's clear we're talking about a publisher now. Does that do enough to resolve it? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:24, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think it works, but why not "a London publishing house", if we're definitely talking about the company? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• The book's dialog used pidgin: BrE prefers dialogue. Are you still happy with pidgin, with the discussion above in mind?

  Changed. I think we do need to keep "pidgin"; there's a later quote from Jacquie that refers to "comic pidgin" being seen as offensive (that is, the reported speech of the Fon, not the word "pidgin"), and I don't want to change that, so it makes sense to keep it throughout. Given that it is the Cameroonian name for the language (although it's a creole, I think, technically, rather than a pidgin) I don't think the word itself needs to be avoided. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:24, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  No -- that was a genuine question; if you're happy, I'm happy. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:38, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• An occasional review questioned: do you mean "a small number of reviews"? The phrasing makes it hard to be sure how many we're on about here.

  Changed to "Some reviews". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:24, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• A secretary, Sophie Cook, was hired to help with preparations, all made from the tiny flat in Margaret's house in Bournemouth. Their ship left Tilbury: did Cook go on the trip? The use of "Their" makes it sound as if she did, but everything else in this section points the other way. Suggest, if not, "the Durrells left Tilbury by ship..."

  Clarified. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• in the event the accommodations were cramped and unpleasant, the boat filthy, and the food appalling: at least the last of these is a matter of opinion, so we need to couch it as such, or use a verifiable statement like "Durrell found the food appalling".

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• When starting a new paragraph, it is best not to use a pronoun (like "they") whose antecedent is in the previous paragraph: restate the noun(s) instead.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• as they were making plans for the thousand-mile journey back to Buenos Aires they discovered there had been a revolution in Asunción, the Paraguayan capital: I'm struggling to cross-reference this and find out what we're talking about. Is it the 1954 Paraguayan coup d'état? If so, "revolution" is probably not the right word.

  Both Botting and Durrell call it a revolution, and neither one makes it completely clear what they're referring to, but from the timing I agree it has to the 1954 coup. Changed to coup d'état and linked to the relevant article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  One reason I found this exercise a bit tricky is that it's hard to tell, in the relevant bit of Durrell's article, how much time has actually passed. Do the sources give any steer here? Otherwise, we could say "received news of a coup d'état in the Paraguayan capital, which took place in early May 1954" -- if that's not chancing our OR arm too much? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:47, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Jacquie and Sophie had to nag him constantly: I would find a better word than nag, which is very gendered and quite contemptuous.

  I agree the noun is contemptuous and gendered; I think of the verb as being non-gendered, but I've changed it to "pester". The source has "cajole" and "bully". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Link the Savoy hotel?

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• illustrating the talk with lightning cartoon drawings: what's one of those -- do you mean that he produced these drawings ex tempore?

  I thought this was a general term, but Google is not supporting me on this so I guess I was wrong. Yes, drawings produced at the time. Changed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

(Still) more to follow, I'm afraid. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm the one who should apologize! For having so many flaws in the article for you to find. I really appreciate the detailed review; thank you. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Airship

The Corfu Trilogy is a perennial favourite of mine. Comments to follow.

I mean, the main thing, as noted in the nomination, Botting: has his work any irregularities, or received negative reviews, or anything of the sort? I think he would have to be regarded as essentially inviolate for FACR 1b) and c) to be met. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:58, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The only inaccuracy I'm aware of in Botting is commented on in note 9, and that's very minor. Botting was given access to all of Durrell's files and the papers at the zoo, and interviewed all the relevant people who were still alive, as far as I can tell. I agree the article has to stand or fall on whether Botting is accepted as a top-quality source, but I'm not aware of any problems with it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I had only read a couple of reviews of Botting, which is remiss of me; I've now read everything I can find on newspapers.com, which is most of the good British papers and a couple of Canadian and Australian ones, and those are all positive. A couple praise Botting, but most simply talk about Durrell. However, there is a negative review in the NYT. Some of the points the reviewer makes aren't really relevant to the article, but you may think some are. Here they are:

• Botting "falls short of Durrell's voice as a storyteller. We never learn the background of Cansdale's feud with Durrell, for instance, and the account of the fierce opposition to captive breeding by a later head of the London Zoo is also garbled. When one of Durrell's own trainees ultimately becomes director of the London Zoo, what ought to be a moment of triumph and vindication turns up instead as a footnote."

  I think the first two of these are odd complaints -- Botting quotes Jacquie Durrell on the background of Cansdale's feud with Durrell, and quotes the head of London Zoo in detail (an incident I didn't include in the article as it's already very long). These are not stories only told in Botting's own words, that's to say; he's quoting, not just citing. The third point, about the emphasis on the victory of Durrell's point of view, is one of emphasis, not of accuracy; again it's not something I've included in the article since if I stray too far into the world of conservation politics the article would balloon even further.

• "Botting also bungles the poignant story of Durrell's second marriage": here the reviewer's complaint is that Botting simply quotes the relevant sources rather than tells the story of the complex emotions of those two years. That's valid for readability but for me it doesn't raise doubts about accuracy.
• "The real frustration of this biography, however, is that Botting seems not to understand or care much about Durrell's work with animals". I agree with this, but I'm not sure it makes much difference to the validity of what is cited to the book. I did use some of Durrell's own books to add mention of some of the animals at a couple of points, but I refrained from going into detail about the breeding successes at the Jersey Zoo, for example. That could be an article in itself and perhaps should be. I could see adding a little more about that if reviewers think it's necessary.

Let me know what you think. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:55, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley

From a first canter-through for spelling etc:

• "died of a cerebral hemorrhage" – the usual BrE spelling is "haemorrhage"
• "a few days, househunting" – the OED and Chambers both hyphenate "house-hunting"
• "handrear four newborn Père David's deer" – ditto for "hand-rear"
• "parents permission" – lacks a possessive apostrophe
• "he traveled with the animals" – American spelling; the usual English form is "travelled".

More later after a proper read-through of the content. Tim riley talk 23:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

All fixed; thanks, Tim -- my eye for British English has been hopelessly corrupted after decades in the US. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:42, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Siege of Breteuil

Nominator(s): Gog the Mild (talk) 23:53, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

It has been 18 months since I nominated an article at FAC. Clearly time to get back to the grindstone. I am working up a couple of start class articles, but scratching around in my sprawling to do section I came across this article, which had made it to A class but then never got its moment here. I have looked it over, tidied it up a little and believe it may be ready. For a few weeks in 1356 the military focus of western Europe was an obscure fortification in Normandy. Then things moved on. I think I have pulled together the most comprehensive article there is on this mildly odd event and how it came to be. As ever, all comments, suggestions and complaints are most welcome. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:53, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

HF

I'll try to take a look at this soon. Hog Farm _Talk 17:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

• Link Black Prince's chevauchée of 1356 in the lead?

D'oh! Thank you. Done.

• "was a walled town with a strong citadel, built some 300 years earlier" - is 300 years earlier referring to the town or to the citadel? The phrasing would suggest the citadel, but the dates in the footnote allow for at most 250 years

You are eagle-eyed. Could you check all of my articles please. The citadel, although one has to read the source closely. Now clarified. The footnote was somehow allocated to the wrong town. As soon as I reread it with an open mind I realised what I had done. Now sorted. (Breteuil - was "constructed ... in the middle of the eleventh century".)

• "The town was close to falling, as the French had nearly succeeded in driving their mines under its walls." - the town or the citadel?

Not specified. If I had to guess, I think the source means the town but it is not completwly clear so I would prefer to leave it a bit vague in the article.

This seems to conflict a bit with where earlier in the article it is stated that "The town of Pont-Audemer fell to a French force commanded by Robert de Houdetot, but as with Évreux the citadel held out. Houdetot ordered assaults on the citadel, which failed; so he drove mines towards its walls in an attempt to sap them". It seems odd to me to state earlier in the article that the town had fallen, but they were trying to drive mines under the walls of the citadel, but when Lancaster arrives at Pont-Audemer on June 30, the town is only close to falling, and the French are trying to drive mines under the walls of the town. Hog Farm _Talk 23:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Wagner 2006a and 2006b have the same page ranges in the long citations

Too much copy and pasting. Fixed.

• There is a citation to "Wagner 2006a p. 20", page 20 is outside of the page range provided for all four Wagner 2006 long citations
• There is a citation to Wagner 2006c pp. 142-143, but that is outside the range of pages provided in the long citation for Wagner 2006c (160-164)

You have lost me here HF. Wagner 2006 runs from p 1 to 374. (Plus i to lv at the start *rolly eyes* .) The page ranges given each refer to that of the entry specified. How should I be doing it. (I have used Wagner in this way in at least 20 previous FACS.)

On Wagner - the article is specifically citing 4 chapters from Wagner. The p. 20 and the pp. 142-143 do not fall into any of the page ranges for any of the Wagner chapters currently used. Really the article needs to either just cite Wagner as a single book (assuming he wrote the whole thing) or include long citations to the two chapters that contain p. 20 and pp. 142-143, since those chapters are being cited but never explicitly identified. I think the second option is probably the more elegant one. Hog Farm _Talk 23:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that's it from me. Hog Farm _Talk 03:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi HF and thanks for that. Very on the ball, and some slop from me. All addressed. Note the query re Wagner. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

A couple replies above - I hope my reasoning on Wagner makes a little more sense now. Hog Farm _Talk 23:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Matarisvan

Hi Gog the Mild, saving a place here and will be posting my comments soon. As a drive-by comment, consider adding an inline map to the infobox? Also, is it not known who the leader of the Navarese knights was? Matarisvan (talk) 18:55, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Matarisvan and thanks for taking a look at this. I was about to move the map in "First siege" up to the bottom of the infobox when I wondered what you meant by "inline". Could you elaborate? Thanks. "leader of the Navarese knights", *scratches head*. I don't mention "Knights" anywhere in the text and having just reread it can't see where you might mean for any force of mounted Navarrese men-at-arms. I am probably being slow, but could you help me out? Gog the Mild (talk) 20:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Gog the Mild, by inline I meant using the map_type and map_size parameters in the infobox so that the map shows up inside the infobox, and you don't have to move up the image in the First siege section which is ok where it is. About the Navarrese knights thing, I was reading an article on knighs before I commented here so I mixed up knights with garrison. Matarisvan (talk) 22:06, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Cheers.

• Map. No prob, just being doing similar for a different article.
• Assuming you mean "were reinforced by up to 1,700 men from Navarrese-held fortifications during the following month" then sadly no sources mention local leaders. ORing I am pretty certain will be because they were made up of 100 from this town, 50 from that castle etc, each under "officers" too junior to be mentioned and slotted into the existing "command structure".

Gog the Mild (talk) 22:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Map done. If it's not how you had envisaged it, let me know. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:56, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Support from Crisco

• I've added {{nowrap}} to the monarch names, per MOS:NBSP. Please review.

Look good. Thanks.

• Meanwhile John II felt the need to stand ready to personally intervene in Normandy if needed. But commitments had been made that a royal army would succour south-west France and so a second army was raised at Bourges and John's third son, the fifteen-year-old John, Count of Poitiers was given nominal command. - Two things: 1) meanwhile generally uses a comma, and 2) it feels awkward to start a sentence with "but". Would it be possible to refactor these sentences?

Not in the style of commaisation I use. And, as I am sure you are aware, there is no grammatical nor stylistic reason why a sentence should not start with but. I note in passing that between GA and ACR this prose has been formally reviewed four times without mention of these. But of course anything can be rewritten if it comes across as awkward. I have had a go, see what you think.

• another younger brother of Charles of Navarre - Worth going simply "another younger brother of Charles"?
• St. Vaast la Hougue - I thought the full stop was omitted in BrE?

Oh dear. Several of the sources are in American and they have beguiled me. See a similar complaint from Tim below. Thank you. Fixed.

• Is the usage of "Men" in this article compliant with MOS:GNL?

It is.

• anyone who it was considered might be worth a ransom. - Would "whom it considered" work better?

My first thought was yes, but that would make 'The English ... took prisoner anyone who it considered might be worth a ransom' which can't be right. I think the present construction may be the least worst.

• I'm seeing two links to "looting" in the body; is that much linking necessary?

Not in my opinion. For some reason "sack" attracts reviewer requests for a link. For which there is only the inadequate loot or plunder. Then they want a separate link for "loot". (I probably need to write an article on sacking.) And it is easier to give in than argue over trivia. I would cheerfully remove both links but have settled for expunging the second. I shall refer any complainants to this exchange.

• Some time around 20 August he offered the garrison of Breteuil free passage to the Cotentin, a huge bribe and permission to take their valuables and goods, to persuade them to vacate the town. - Did they take the offer?

I have tweaked the wording to clarify. Better?

• Overall, quite an easy read.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:09, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks {{|Crisco 1492}}, and for the review. Much appreciated. I have addressed all of your comments above. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks, Gog. Happy to support.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 04:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley

Not much from me. There are a couple of points I wouldn't mind a little more detail on, but the article seems to me eminently suitable for elevation to FA, and I'll be supporting. Meanwhile:

• Background

• "Do we know how the English got from "financially exhausted" in 1346 to "an unusually favourable financial position" in 1355?

It is nine years Tim. Anything can happen in nine years. Note the use of the word "unusually". I am loath to get into nine years of profit and loss accounts, including references to the Black Death (1346-48), a truce which was repeatedly extended and which I have already milked a full FA out of, a major change in how the customs duty on wool exports was collected (which may be worth another article) and goodness knows what else. You will be the death of me. I have stuck in a footnote on what the sources written by wannabe cost accountants more or less agree was the proximate cause. What do you think. It probably needs fine tuning, so feel free to suggest better wording.

Lovely. Most informative. Tim riley talk 00:45, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• "largely due to lack of money to recruit more men – in AmE "due to" is accepted as a compound preposition on a par with "owing to", but in BrE it is not universally so regarded. "Owing to" or, better, "because of" is safer.

I know. You keep telling me so. I even have it on my pre-nom checklist. I have no idea how it got through, but it has now been expunged.

• First siege

• "Normandy as Count of Évreux and Charles took personal command" – I had to read this three times before I got the gist. I kept reading "as" as meaning "when" rather than "in the capacity of" and Évreux and Charles taking personal command. If you replace the "and" with a semicolon or full stop I think all will be immediately clear.

Yes, it is messy. Broken into two sentences and mildly reworked. Thank you.

• Relief

• "Attempting a pursuit was clearly hopeless" – it isn't obvious why a pursuit would be hopeless.

Tweaked a little. Does that suffice?

It does indeed. Tim riley talk 00:45, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Second siege

• "destruction being wracked in south-west France" – I think you may mean "wreaked"

Actually I didn't. Honest. But I am being too clever for my own good, so changed.

• Notes

• "one of John's closest advisors" – unclear why the AmE "advisor" rather than the traditional BrE "adviser".

Because two of the main sources are written in American and once I read the AmE version it settles down into the vast empty space between my ears and makes itself at home. Now evicted.

That's my lot. Tim riley talk 12:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks to you Mr riley. Some thoughts and comments in response above. Gog the Mild (talk) 00:27, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Wholly satisfied with Gog's comments, above, and now happy to sign on the dotted line and support the elevation of this article to FA. As the proud recipient of The Queen's Award for Cowardice I am not in the least interested in war or people killing each other, but Gog's articles always hold my attention. Meets all the FA criteria in my view. I hope there will be more in this series. Tim riley talk 00:45, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

2004–05 Gillingham F.C. season

Nominator(s): ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I'm back again with yet another article on a season in the history of Gillingham F.C. This season was, frankly, absolutely bloody awful, and writing about it brought back a lot of bad memories, so hopefully I can get a bronze star to offset my trauma ;-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:58, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments by Eric Idle's Cat

Hi Chris, funnily enough I was at that Forest game with a Forest-supporting friend of mine and we were talking about it only this week. I have a couple of minor points.

• In Background and pre-season: "they finished in 21st place, level on points with 22nd-placed Walsall and avoiding relegation to the third tier only because their goal difference of -19 was one better than Walsall's -20." – should this be either "avoided" or "Walsall, avoiding…"?
• In footnote 55, "Sunday" and "Telegraph" need separating. Eric Idle's Cat (talk) 11:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
  • @Eric Idle's Cat: - thanks for the review, both points addressed. As I recall (and it's a hazy memory, given that it was nearly 20 years ago) I sat about two rows from the front of the away end at that game, it poured with rain, and the roof didn't cover right to the front so I got soaked in addition to seeing my team get relegated....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Support - good work, as always. Eric Idle's Cat (talk) 18:00, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

750h

Will review. 750h+ 12:45, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Teddy Wynyard

Nominator(s): AA (talk) 15:55, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

This article is about Teddy Wynyard, a noted sportsman and soldier. As a cricketer, he played Test cricket for England and had a substantial domestic career with Hampshire, where he was instrumental in their return to first-class status in 1894. He was also a footballer, playing in the infancy of the game. He played for the Old Carthusians and won the 1881 FA Cup with the team. He was also adept at winter sports, winning the International Tobogganist Championship at Davos in 1894, 1895 and 1899. In the army, he saw action in the Third Anglo-Burmese War (Burmese Expedition), for which he gained the DSO. He would retire from military service in 1903, but returned to serve in WWI. He was also an important administrator in cricket. Altogether, an interesting character who led a varied life. AA (talk) 15:55, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Placeholder

• Putting my name down to review this one when I have sufficient time -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
  • One drive-by comment - as per the footnote immediately below them, football stats shown in infoboxes are "Club domestic league appearances and goals" only. As his Corinthians appearances were in friendlies, these should not be shown (and for the other teams you can remove the ?s and simply show blanks as league football did not even exist in that time period) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:46, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

    @ChrisTheDude I have removed the football teams/stats from the infobox, as I don't think the other teams need to be shown as they were not league clubs, and they are mentioned in the prose. AA (talk) 20:53, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Teddy_Wynyard_c1900.jpg: when and where was this first published?
  • Comment. @Nikkimaria: so far, the only version of this photo I can find is on ESPNcricinfo here, which attributes it to Hampshire County Cricket Club. Will see if I can find a publishing date, though undoubtedly prior to 1908 as he is wearing a Hampshire county cap, and his playing career with Hampshire ended in 1908. AA (talk) 20:48, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• File:Teddy_Wynyard_Vanity_Fair_25_August_1898.jpg needs a US tag
  • Done. Tag added. AA (talk) 20:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• File:Old_carthusians_1881.jpg: source link is dead, when and where was this first published, and what research was undertaken to try to identify the author?
  • Comment. It would appear to be from this source using the Wayback machine. AA (talk) 20:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
    • Comment. I've conducted a reverse image search, which doesn't bring up anything not searchable through certain keywords in Google. I can drop a message on the WP:FOOTBALL talkpage and see if anyone knows if it might be from a book. AA (talk) 22:26, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments

• "The son of the soldier and judge William Wynyard, he was born" - I feel like the body should "start afresh" after the lead, so I would be tempted to say "The son of the soldier and judge William Wynyard, Edward George Wynyard was born"
  • Comment. Have gone with your suggestion, it reads much nicer and with a better flow. AA (talk) 20:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• "It was speculated, that had he not pursued a military career, he may have achieved" - comma is in the wrong place, it should be "It was speculated that, had he not pursued a military career, he may have achieved"
  • Comment. Comma moved about! AA (talk) 20:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• "His actions were praised by General's Sir Robert Low and Sir George White" - there should not be an apostrophe in the plural form of "general"
  • Done. I have removed the apostrophe. AA (talk) 20:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• "In recognition of his actions, he was appointed to command a company of the Welsh Regiment" - it was spelt "Welch" in the lead......?
  • Done. I have changed to Welsh in the lead as it wasn't known as the Welch Regiment until 1920. AA (talk) 20:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• "By the time he had returned home later in 1887, Hampshire had lost their first-class status since his departure for India, following a number of poor seasons." - I feel like the words "since his departure for India" are a bit redundant here
  • Done. Removed. I did toy with putting in "By the time he had returned home later in 1887, Hampshire had lost their first-class status in 1885, following a number of poor seasons", but it doesn't quite read right I don't think. AA (talk) 20:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• "who had noted that both Wynyard and fellow soldier Francis Quinton, had been missing" - that comma should not be there
  • Done. Nice spot on the rogue comma! AA (talk) 20:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• "With the outbreak of Second Boer War" => "With the outbreak of the Second Boer War"
  • Done. AA (talk) 20:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• "During the winter which proceeded the 1904 season" => "During the winter which preceded the 1904 season"
  • Comment. The final paragraph of the previous section talks briefly about the 1904 season. The section which follows begins by talking about his tour West Indies which happened in the winter which followed the 1904 season. AA (talk) 20:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
    • Gotcha. In that case I think it should simply say "the winter which followed the 1904 season". I'm not 100% sure that "proceeded" can be used as a transitive verb in the sense of "came after" (i.e. can you really say "Thursday was the day which proceeded Wednesday"......?) - if it can it must be an archaic/obscure usage and I cite myself as an example of it being confusing to readers ;-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:20, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
      • Comment. Yeah, I've always disliked using "proceeding", I'd prefer something more fancy! Have changed it :) AA (talk) 21:45, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• "with Wynyard heading the teams batting averages" => "with Wynyard heading the team's batting averages"
  • Done. AA (talk) 20:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• " she had become stuck under the ice following a mountain torrent.;" - there's a stray full stop before the semi-colon
  • Done. A good spot! AA (talk) 20:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• "forming his own club, "The Jokers" which was drawn" => "forming his own club, "The Jokers", which was drawn "
  • Done, comma inserted. AA (talk) 20:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• These very minor points are all I got - ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:15, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
  • @ChrisTheDude:. Many thanks for your comments :) Please find my responses above. AA (talk) 20:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support on prose -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

All-American Bitch

Nominator(s): NØ 06:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

This article is about the first track on Olivia Rodrigo's album Guts, "All-American Bitch". A strongly-worded critique of society's expectations from women, this song has everything, from a Kennedy reference to a transition from folk to pop-punk and a scream for the ages. Although not given the full single treatment, it did receive a great SNL performance! I wanted to time this around Election season in America, but no comment on the outcome of said election... I hope all American Wikipedians voted, and thanks a lot to everyone who will take the time to give their feedback here.--NØ 06:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Media review - pass

Hi MaranoFan, happy to do the media review. The article contains the following media files:

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Olivia_Rodrigo_@_Theatre_at_Ace_Hotel_10_09_2023_(53422493857).jpg
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:OlivaRO2150524_(8)_(53727178201)_(cropped).jpg
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:All-American_Bitch.ogg

The first two are images licensed under CC BY 2.0. The third one is a copyrighted audio file under fair use with a valid non-free use rationale. I'm not an expert here but the quality may be too high: it's 173 kbps but WP:SAMPLE recommends 64 kbit/s for ogg files.

The media files are relevant to the article and placed in appropriate locations. They all have captions. Both images have alt texts. The last clause of the English caption at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Olivia_Rodrigo_@_Theatre_at_Ace_Hotel_10_09_2023_(53422493857).jpg is a little odd. If "with perfect all American lips and tits" is a direct quote, then it needs quotation marks. Or the clause could simply be removed. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:47, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the media review, Phlsph7. The 64kbit/s recommendation is referring to the value between length and file size, which is 63 kbps for this file. Similar sizes can be seen on other files like this one.--NØ 11:10, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah right, it seems I read of the kbps value of the mp3 file given at the bottom rather than the kbps value of ogg file itself. The caption has been adjusted, so this takes care of the remaining concern. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:28, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Placeholder

• Putting myself down to a review of this one when I have a little more time....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Medxvo

• "Lyrically, it is satire and explores society's ..." - "Lyrically, it is a satire song that explores society's ..."
• "comparing it to the work of other rock artists" - what is "it"? the production, the song, or the production and her vocals?
• "In the United States, it debuted at number 13 ..." - "In the United States, "All-American Bitch" debuted at number 13..."—The sentence before this isn't related to the song itself but to the vocals and the production
• "platinum certification" - "platinum certification"—MOS:PIPE
• "... on her face. This performance received positive reviews" - "... on her face; the performance received positive reviews from critics"
• "Dan Nigro returned to produce every single track on it" - did we state in the article before this that Nigro also produced Sour?
• "Joan Didion's book ..." - "Joan Didion's 1968 book ..."
• "Initially written on a piano, they turned it into a rock song with a live band" - "Initially written on a piano, the song was turned into a rock song with a live band"—I don't think the first one is grammatically correct
• "An online TikTok video compared the chorus of "All-American Bitch" to Miley Cyrus's 2008 single "Start All Over" - can we add something like "upon the song's release" to say that this is part of the immediate reception and justify the sentence being in the release section?
• "Its production received comparisons" - "The song's production received comparisons"—The sentence before this isn't related to the song itself but to Rodrigo's vocals
• "Laura Snapes described it as ..." - "Laura Snapes described the song as ..."—To clarify that they are talking about the song itself
• "comparing it to Sour's opener "Brutal" - "comparing it to Sour's opener "Brutal" (2021)"
• "Some opined that the song would be suitable ..." - can we attribute this to the two sources instead of "some"?
• "Several others also described Rodrigo's vocals in the verses as angelic, and writing for MusicOMH, John Murphy believed her screams ..." - "Several critics described Rodrigo's vocals in the verses as angelic, with MusicOMH's John Murphy believing her screams ..."
• "Beats Per Minutes's Lucas ..." - "Beats Per Minute's Lucas ..."
• "was certified gold" - "was certified gold"
• "top 10 song" - "top-10 song"
• "in a concert exclusively for ..." - "in an exclusive concert for ..."
• "Rodrigo sang it on Saturday Night Live eight days later" - "Rodrigo sang "All-American Bitch" on Saturday Night Live on December 9, 2023"—This is a new paragraph so I'd say the full date
• "that provided 20 cakes for it became ..." - "that provided 20 cakes for the performance became ..."
• "the Apple TV+ series The Buccaneers" - "the Apple TV+ series The Buccaneers (2023)"
• the Guts World Tour is a 2024–2025 concert tour not just a 2024 tour; this is how it's currently considered... (for both the lead and prose)
• There are incidents of "Guts's ...", "The New York Times's ...", "Chicago Sun-Times's ..." that I think should be "Guts' ...", "The New York Times' ...", "Chicago Sun-Times' ..."

I hope these comments are helpful for now. Best of luck with the FAC! Medxvo (talk) 20:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Source review

• "She references the Kennedy family while encapsulating her desire to meet ideals: "I got class and integrity, just like a goddamn Kennedy" - which part of the NME source supports this claim?
• the Rolling Stone sources should have a limited access not a subscription access
• The Wall Street Journal and The Tennessean should have a subscription access
• The New York Times, The Cut, the Los Angeles Times, The Boston Globe, Vulture, Vogue, and the Minnesota Star Tribune should have a limited access for refs 1, 3, 35, 40, 46, 85, 86, 97, 98, and 99
• Some sources need to be archived such as refs 44, 78, and 87
• Why not use this source instead of the Apple TV+ Press source?

Medxvo (talk) 20:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Yoshi's New Island

Nominator(s): ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 19:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Yoshi's New Island is a 2014 platform video game developed by Arzest and published by Nintendo for the Nintendo 3DS, essentially serving as a direct sequel to the events of Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. This is my third FA nomination and my first one for a game not in the Mario Party series. To my knowledge, this would be the first article for a Yoshi game to reach FA status.

I would say the "Development and release" section is the best one I've worked on yet, due largely in part to sources suggested by Captain Galaxy. This article was previously promoted to GA status following a much-appreciated review from Cukie Gherkin. Most of my edits since then have actually been removing redundant or less helpful citations from the gameplay section to make it easier to read. I was recently able to archive a source that had not been archived prior to the Wayback Machine shutdown. As always, feedback is welcomed. ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 19:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree somewhat with this being featured only with a bit of work. Overall, this should be featured Thelifeofan413 (talk) 09:57, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@Thelifeofan413: Do you have any specific suggestions for what work could be done, or do you generally agree with the feedback provided below? ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 14:03, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I feel that there could be a legacy section as I have seen that in other similar featured articles. Thelifeofan413 (talk) 19:28, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

A legacy section might be better suited if the game were more high-profile, or if there was important information that otherwise wouldn't fit into the reception section, like how the legacy section for Mario Party DS discusses the anti-piracy hoax. How would you feel about a paragraph at the end of the "Critical response" section that evaluates the game's general standing in critic rankings of Yoshi games? ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 19:50, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I feel that it may be how it was affected by the following of the series. It could also be used to how it affected the story of the Yoshi franchise. Thelifeofan413 (talk) 21:03, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@Thelifeofan413: Could you take a look at the last paragraph in the "Critical response" section to see if it's something like what you had in mind? ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 16:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Cukie Gherkin

Reserving in case I have the time to review. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Since I'm more like, in tune with games and stuff, I'll try to offer comments on how to make the article more legible to non-gamers. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 23:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

1. My understanding is that the review template should only have 10 review examples. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 08:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I will at least do this much. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Also, I'll try to get the sourcing done, but I cannot promise I can do a full review of the article in terms of its quality due to sudden life complications. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 08:07, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Source review

1. [7] - Working on this. Not related to this source specifically, but "Each boss is defeated in three hits." feels like it can be adequately supported by this source.
2. [8] - "The fourth level of each world is a castle course that ends with a battle against the evil wizard Kamek," - This seems like it should be adequately cited without using this.
3. "Losing a life with the Flutter Wings unlocks a golden variant of the power-up, which provides both flight and invincibility." This uses three citations, but I'm not sure what the other two cover that the Nintendo World Report citation does not.
4. That the minigames cannot be played online is not cited in the two sources attached; I think this part can be removed. I believe that this source can be removed from this line of text as well, as it doesn't seem to verify anything that the other source doesn't.
5. "allowing several people with the system to play together using only one game cartridge." - I think it would be appropriate to replace this source with a source explaining what Download Play on 3DS is and how it works.
6. "Yoshi's New Island was developed by Arzest," this has three sources attached, but this seems like a statement that could be supported with only one.
7. [9] - Given that this is only used in the infobox and not later in the article, I would remove this citation and use the citation mentioned later.

Cut citations where needed and added a GameSpot reference mentioning that Download Play works by transferring data directly between consoles. I'm not sure which citation mentioned later you were referring to, though I feel that it should be sufficiently supported as is. I haven't seen anything in MOS/VG or Template:Video game reviews about a limit on reviews in the table, though I've narrowed it down to 10 publications. ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 15:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

1. I noticed that this source is used as a source, even though there's a source verifying it (the Nintendo World Report source). I also noticed that on multiple release dates you double up on the sourcing; is that to further solidify the correctness of the release date?
2. [10] - Solid
3. [11] - Solid
4. [12] - Mostly fine, except I noticed that the article claims the wheel is the goal of most levels, but the Siliconera article says each level. I'm assuming that the most levels qualifier is to acknowledge castle levels?
5. [13] - Solid

Somehow didn't even notice that the Japanese release date is already supported by Nintendo World Report. I've removed the primary reference. And you're entirely correct with castle levels being the only levels without the ring for the goal, which the article unfortunately fails to mention. ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 22:17, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Image review

File:Yoshinewislandboxart3ds.jpg - Sufficiently low res, description is accurate. Should state that it is not the whole image, as it is a cropped image. Image does not match the image used in this source, should change source to this: [14]

File:Yoshi's New Island - Mega Eggdozer gameplay.jpg - Sufficiently low res, source is accurately stated showing the context of its use. I would recommend using a stronger rationale, including exactly why the screenshot is necessary for the reader to understand. Ie, you could mention UI elements being depicted, the graphics, the gameplay, etc.

I've clarified that certain elements of the first image were cropped out and corrected its source. I've also strengthened the rationale for the second image, mainly by noting UI elements that are not mentioned elsewhere in the article. ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 03:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose from SC

• This looks like it's been citation bombed to within an inch of its life, making it difficult to read. Can I strongly recommend you consider both rationalising and bundling them so there are no more than two or three at any point. (For example: Does "All of Yoshi's transformations are controlled with the console's gyroscope" need five citations to support the information? Without checking the sources, I would guess that one of those five would probably suffice.)
• I'm opposing based on reading just the Gameplay section. This needs a re-write so it makes sense to people who have never played the game, or even heard of it. Even after reading it, I still have no idea what a "yoshi" is, nor what or who a "Baby Mario" is. Ditto for a "Kamek". Some of the terminology is equally incomprehensible: "30 Yoshi Medals are collected from a goul roulette" is gibberish without any context and I have no idea what "a mid-boss" is supposed to be. Even having read that section, I still don't understand what the point of the game is: does it have an end that people can reach and "win" the game? There doesn't seem to be any description of the overall game (which is what the section should open with): it's straight into detail without context. This seems to be a common problem with video game articles, where it's written from the point of view of gamers and insiders, which excludes a large percentage of readers, who are left confused. - SchroCat (talk) 19:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

  Asking generally, but would terminology such as "mid-boss" be more comprehensible if mid-boss linked to this? - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 20:39, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The MoS says - MOS:NOFORCELINK - "Do use a link wherever appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links." So, if it is necessary to understand something to understand what is more generally being communicated then that something needs explaining in line. After all, we're an encyclopedia, explaining things to people who don't understand them is what we do. Sending a reader off to a link to read another article to come back to yours, possibly in mid-sentence, doesn't really cut it. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:31, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I see. I will keep that in mind for any game articles I bring to FAC then. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 23:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Ditto. I'll simply rephrase some parts of the section to make it easier for readers with a lack of knowledge of video game terminology to understand. ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 23:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@SchroCat: Would you mind taking another look at the gameplay section? I've kept most of the information the same, but restructured it in a way that should make the actual goal of the game clearer and the terminology less confusing to all readers. I've also cut a good number of citations from both that section and the plot section. ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 16:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• At the moment my oppose still stands. Partly it's still the same issue of requiring too much pre-existing knowledge to understand this, partly quality of prose and partly, still, the excessive citations. One example of the citations is in the first para of the body. I looked at the phrase "enhanced and enlarged by Kamek's magic". This six-word phrase apparently requires four citations ([13][14][15][16]), but only one of which (no 15) supports the information. One of the citations doesn't even mention Kamek and the others don't support it at all. Why are the other three citations there at all? I'm going to repeat WP:CITEBUNDLE to you, as the sheer number of citations makes this an uncomfortable read. Combines with the unwelcoming aspects of the prose, I gave up reading before I got to the end of the Gameplay section.
  Skimming down the article, I see the review section is full of OR/SYNTH. By that I mean that if you look at—just by way of example—the phrase "The game's soundtrack was widely panned by critics", I see four citations: [7][9][17][25]. Ignoring the unencyclopaedic term "panned", none of these citations actually support that the music was widely panned. They are four examples of reviewers criticising the music, which is not enough to support the text. In order to say "The game's soundtrack was widely panned by critics", you need something that says that, not your OR in picking four reviews that and you coming to the conclusion that it was "widely panned". The whole section is rife with this and with the format of "[Reviewer] of [Publication] said..."; it is, unfortunately, a million miles away from FA standard.
  Sorry this all sounds very harsh and negative, but I really do think you should consider withdrawing this nom and working on the issues before going to a peer review. When you do, I strongly suggest you ask some non-gaming people to review it to see if it is entirely clear to them what the game is all about. - SchroCat (talk) 08:13, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  @SchroCat For what it's worth I neither write nor read video game articles, and have no comment on your other criticisms, but as to to criticism about OR, isn't that just how reception sections are written? Looking through the list of video game featured content, literally every article I picked is written like this. Looking at a lot of other media type articles (books, movies, TV shows) this is common there as well, but slightly less so. I've never understood this myself, but either we should delist every single video game FA or this is not that out of line. PARAKANYAA (talk) 13:06, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  It depends on how it’s phrased. It’s fine to introduce a paragraph with a sentence that gives an overview (depends on the phrasing), but not to make a definitive sweeping statement based upon four reviews. - SchroCat (talk) 15:05, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  Would seven reviews suffice? The three citations at the end of the sentence are intended to contribute to this statement. Or would it just be better to begin the sentence with something along the lines of "Many reviewers criticized the game's soundtrack"? ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 15:44, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think if you got rid of widely, it would help address the issue - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 15:48, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  To reflect the source material without inferring across all reviews, "multiple reviewers mentioned X" is a fine topic sentence. Even better would be to characterize how exactly they were criticizing its soundtrack, citing the sources and/or providing quotes in the citation as evidence, then followed by individual examples of the criticism. czar 00:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Martha Bradley

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 16:48, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Another cookery book writer from history for your consideration. I created this about four years ago and took it to GA, but I've recently added more and brushed it up, and I think it's mature enough to try for FA now. All constructive comments are most welcome. – SchroCat (talk) 16:48, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Generalissima

Image review

All images are public domain and good to use. Alt-text would be nice but not a requirement. Will do a prose review later. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 17:10, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Alt text: a perpetual weakness of mine: I shall add this shortly. Thanks for reviewing the images and I look forward to any other comments you have. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 17:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Alts now added - SchroCat (talk) 10:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok, alts look good! getting back to the prose review now. - G

Prose review

• Lede solid and looks to be a good length for this shorter article.
• Life is well-written. I ran into a somewhat similar problem of having to write a biography for someone without clear facts about their life, so I sympathize with this being tricky.
  • Do we need to know that she read the third edition in particular of Royal Cookery?
    • It's one of the few clues as to when she was still alive (I think the last definite date that can be identified), so I think it's an important point. - SchroCat (talk) 08:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• May be good to wikilink slave system somewhere.

I've linked it to Slavery#Africa for now, but that isn't the best link. I'll look for an alternative, but this will do for the moment. - SchroCat (talk) 08:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• "Teutonic" is archaic enough I think it would be confusing to many readers. I think we should just say "German".
  • Hmmm. OK. I was trying to avoid the close repetition of the word "German", but I'll give it a spin. - SchroCat (talk) 08:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• Do we need to wikilink Glasse again so soon after her previous mention?
  • Is it so soon? She's linked in different sections (now allowed) and there's a fair gap between the two links. - SchroCat (talk) 08:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• Modern cookery books This may simply be because I'm a yank, but I've never heard "cookery book" used in a modern context. Is there a difference in use between cookery book and cookbook? Less a correction and more just interest on my part.
  • Yes, it's entirely because you're a Yank! We have cookery books over here: we leave the "cookbooks" to you. Just an ENGVAR thing which most don't know about. - SchroCat (talk) 08:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@SchroCat: That's all on my end. Thank you for another interesting cooking history article. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 07:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks Generalissima; all your points addressed in this edit. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Support Looks good to me, thank you for your swift reply. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:27, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Support from Crisco

• Did the PR. Put me down for another review here in the next few days.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 02:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
  • All of my concerns were addressed at PR. I made a quick edit to the ALT text, but other than that everything has been stable since 1 October. Happy to support.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 11:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

750h

like every other review feel free to refuse my suggestions with proper justification. 750h+ 06:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

lead

• released in two-volumes in 1758 does this mean there were two volumes released? if so why is there a hyphen?

• Reworked it a little - SchroCat (talk) 09:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

life

• no problems here. 750h+ 06:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

the british housewife (1758)

• showed an economical aspect to their ==> "showed an economic aspect to their"

• "Economic" has overtones of economic science or the economy in general; "economical" is more to do with value for money or profitability and seems more appropriate. - SchroCat (talk) 09:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I see. 750h+ 09:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• criticise their approach for certain dishes ==> "criticise their approach to certain dishes"

• Yep, done. - SchroCat (talk) 09:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• and no way extravagant in the expense. ==> "and in no way extravagant in the expense."

• This is a quote. - SchroCat (talk) 09:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

oh oops didn't realise 750h+ 09:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the article @SchroCat:! I have an open candidacy if you'd like to take a look. 750h+ 06:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks 750. Done, except where commented on. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Support. 750h+ 09:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments Support from Tim riley

• "The book follows the French style of nouvelle cuisine" – this pulled me up short. I always thought nouvelle cuisine came in when I was a young man, and what's more so does the Dictionnaire de l'académie Française: La nouvelle cuisine, courant gastronomique né à la fin des années 1960, privilégiant une cuisine plus légère que la cuisine française traditionnelle. But then, blow me down, I find that The Oxford Companion to Food says that in 1733 Vincent La Chapelle in his Cuisinier moderne announced the birth of a "nouvelle cuisine", a new way of cooking that was to be adopted by several generations of French chefs—until Carême challenged it in the early 19th century. Two mutually exclusive uses of the same term. I think it would be v. helpful to your readers to add a footnote explaining that the term was first used in the 18th century and resurfaced in the 1960s, in both cases advocating a return to simplicity.
• "able to improve on pre-existing dishes" – wouldn't just "existing" serve the same function here (rather more elegantly)?
• "Based on the recipes shown in her work, Bradley had read several contemporary cookery books" – I don't think this sentence quite works. I think you need "it appears that" or "it is evident that" or some such after the comma and before Bradley.
• "... the cook, the housekeeper, the gardener and the farrier" – perhaps a blue link for "farrier"?
• "woodcock or snipe, pidgeon, partridge and chicken" – misspelled pigeon (only in the alt text, but even so...)
• "confectionary—and preserved foods..." – the usual form is that the sweets are termed "confectionery" and a "confectionary" is the place where they are made.
• "The food historian Sandra Sherman sees the pedagogical form in the layout of the recipes" – possibly "a pedagogical form"?
• "Bradley was one of the very female cookery book writers in eighteenth-century England" – as opposed to one of the butch ones? (Julian: "We get them from our charcutier". Horne: "Your butcher?" Julian: "You think so? Must be the way I'm wearing my hair".)
• "Although Bradley gave support for some aspects of French dining, she was also happy to criticise their approach to certain dishes" – "their" being the French, but this doesn't actually say so.
• "examples of how to truss cuts of game,[60] examples of menus..." – perhaps a synonym for one of the two "examples"?

That's my lot. I'll be supporting, but I hope these few quibbles are of use meanwhile. Tim riley talk 11:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks Tim, much appreciated: I've covered all these in these edits. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:56, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

All fine. Happy to support – a lovely article, scrupulously researched and referenced. Meets all the FA criteria in my view. Tim riley talk 15:34, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Source review with a note about article structure/topic

The harvn script complains that Pinkard2009 and Davison2014 don't point to any citation, I guess that the former's supposed to link to the source Pickard2009 and the latter is a typo. These are some pretty large page ranges on many of the short sources. Is the topic Bradley or the book she authored? The article's structured like a biography, but both the section length and the sources I perlustrated are more about the book than Bradley. There is a pattern in source formatting and the sources seem to be reliable - the old book's used as a source for its own content, which is fine -, but I must caution that this isn't a field where I have much expertise. The Internet Archive insists that the quotes from Bradley's book that I searched for don't exist? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:13, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks Jo-Jo. I've fixed the citation problem. The topic is as much about Bradley as possible (but as the article says itself "Little is known about the life of Martha Bradley, and what there is has come from her single publication, The British Housewife": this means we have to cover the book to some level. There are very few page ranges, and most that are there are fairly short; where they are longer, it is because the subject matter covers the whole range of pages (this is all mostly connected to Bradley's own work). To see the quotes, it's best to go to the page you want to see the quote on. With archaic print ('S' rendered as 'f', etc), the IA search facility doesn't quite work as well as it should on picking up the right words. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like the article would be better if it was constructed around the book (i.e The British Housewife) rather than the author. Re quotes, is it custom to mark deviations (e.g "fhe"->"Our cook" in #53)? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

No, I think it's best here - there is a DNB entry on her, so per WP:ANYBIO we are more than OK having an article on her. There's not much difference between Bradley and someone like Ann Cook (cookery book writer) (with the exception that there is a little more on Cook). I'll have a look at the quotes shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 13:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Aston Martin DB11

Nominator(s): 750h+ 05:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

This article is about a gorgeous grand tourer, which is the successor to the Aston Martin DB9—the first FA I made. This is my seventh nomination, and underwent a recent GA review by Mertbiol for which I'm very grateful. Thanks for any comments I get. 750h+ 05:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Image review

Just doing the image review:

• All images have a free license from the photographer on the Commons. All have alt text, captions, and links to the Commons. The Aston Martin logo is de minimis and not a major part of any photo.
• For the first caption in "Background", I think it would be more clear to people unfamiliar the cars to have "The DB9" either link to that car's article or expanded to "Aston Martin DB9" as it is in the body text.

And that's it, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for the review. 750h+ 23:09, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Quite welcome. No issues remaining, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 23:16, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

SC

• I have a few others to do first, but I will review. - SchroCat (talk) 06:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• "at the facility in Gaydon": I think just a little more than "the facility" is needed. Maybe "at the Aston Martin facility in Gaydon"?
• "2004[7][8] at the facility": same here: "2004[7][8] at its facility" will suffice
• "2016 at the facility in Gaydon, Warwickshire": -> "2016 at its facility in Gaydon" (doesn't need Warwickshire mentioned again)
• "a near-perfect weight distribution": the description of 'near-perfect' needs inline attribution I think
• "doors ... are swan-hinged": As this is a semi-technical term, I think you need to explain what it meant by it (see MOS:NOFORCELINK – "do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence).
• "humourously" -> "humorously"

That's my lot. Very little to pick up on here – another enjoyable read. - SchroCat (talk) 12:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Done. the second last concern, i've explained via footnote. Thanks for the review @SchroCat:. 750h+ 12:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support. all good from me. - SchroCat (talk) 13:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Source review: pass

I may as well pick this up while I'm here - SchroCat (talk) 12:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• Formatting is consistent and in line with policy and practice
• Additional searches show no missing sources of note
• The sources used are reliable and acceptable for FA.
• Pass of source review. - SchroCat (talk) 13:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

  Much thanks for the reviews SC! 750h+ 13:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

History of infant schools in Great Britain

Nominator(s): Llewee (talk) 11:31, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

What if a history article but with cute pictures?

This is my second nomination of this article. It was previously nominated under the title "infant school" (see) but as there were concerns about that article's scope it's focus has been made more specific. I will link everyone who commented on the original nomination so they can decide whether to say anything about the articles current state; Wehwalt, Generalissima, Nikkimaria, WhatamIdoing, UndercoverClassicist, Gerda Arendt, Crisco 1492 and Serial Number 54129. Llewee (talk) 11:31, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

@Llewee: you're supposed to wait 2 weeks before starting another nominations. It's been five days. {{@FAC}} 750h+ 23:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

FrB.TG, said that doesn't apply in this case when they closed the last nomination--Llewee (talk) 00:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Just saw that. My bad 750h+ 02:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Support from Crisco 1492

• My support from the previous nomination still stands. I'm seeing that discussion of Ireland has been removed, and I think the change in scope has helped keep the article more specific.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:33, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Valhalla train crash

Nominator(s): Daniel Case (talk) 05:26, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

This article is about the deadliest train crash in the 40-year history of New York's Metro-North Railroad. Five people on a Harlem Line train were killed during a winter evening rush hour in suburban Westchester County when a driver stopped her SUV on the tracks at a grade crossing near one of the largest cemeteries in the New York area. Almost ten years, an NTSB investigation and a lawsuit later, we still don't know why because she was killed as well. Daniel Case (talk) 05:26, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Comment

Overall in very fine shape, though there are 71 instances of the word 'accident' throughout while there are only a handful of uses of that word in RS. Should be switched to better words throughout (crash, fire, collision, incident, etc). I've been challenged in the aviation space for suggesting the same and have been told that MOS overrules RS, but I think this shouldn't be so contentious for this article Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 11:14, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, we had this discussion last year, and then its sequel. All I can say is that, for the reasons I gave in the first discussion, I feel you, and that should consensus come around on this I would be the first to make that change. Daniel Case (talk) 02:53, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:20, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

TAOT

I will be reviewing this over the coming days. I will start at the lead and go in the order of the article's sections.

Lead and infobox

• On the evening of February 3, 2015, a commuter train on Metro-North Railroad's Harlem Line struck a passenger car at a grade crossing on Commerce Street near Valhalla, New York, United States, between the Valhalla and Mount Pleasant stations, killing six people and injuring 15 others, seven very seriously. This is 307 characters long; I recommend splitting it into two sentences.

I took the middle part about which two stations the crash was between out (more detail than the lede needs to have) and split the section about the fatalities and injuries into a separate sentence. Daniel Case (talk) 06:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• It is the deadliest crash in Metro-North's history, and at the time the deadliest rail accident in the United States "Is" and "and at the time" do not go together, because "at the time" refers to a past event but "is" refers to something in the present.

Done

• how the passengers were killed Suggest "how the train passengers were killed" since a car can also have passengers.

Done

• In 2024, a jury hearing one found the railroad and Brody liable for the accident. What is the meaning of "one" here? Hearing one what?

Added the words "of the suits".

• For the infobox, suggest specifying that one train car and the automobile were destroyed, and the other train car damaged. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 01:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Changed.

• This is minor, but the crossing signage should really be "the crossing signals" since this is a crossing with active warning devices, not just crossbucks.

Done.

• Suggesting linking NTSB in the infobox photo caption.

Done.

I will continue this review soon. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 01:35, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I have responded above. I will have limited ability to respond to comments here early this week because I am working at the polls on Tuesday (aaaallll day here in NY) Daniel Case (talk) 06:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Background

• Bombardier M7A electric multiple units is a MOS:SOB.

Fixed, although it made the sentence a little wordier.

• Suggest linking M7A in the image caption.

Did that too.

• I'm curious about the use of "boom barrier", as I'm pretty sure the standard terminology in the U.S. is crossing gate. I do see that crossing gate is also linked in the following section, though both links go to the same page.

I don't remember writing this ... might have been someone else shortly after the article was started. I have changed it to crossing gates since the cited Times article uses that term.

• Probably worth mentioning the M7As are in pairs, as otherwise the mentions of 8 cars and 4 M7As seem contradictory.

Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Are all these links and mentions of the counties locations are in really needed? Imho they are excessive and make the sentences too long.

I trimmed them. Writing both this and December 2013 Spuyten Duyvil derailment drew a lot on my experiences visiting various Metro-North stations with my son when he was younger so he could take pictures and video, and the understanding of Metro-North's operations I gained. So maybe I was still thinking that way at the time, but it's not that time anymore.

• It might be best to reorder the second and third paragraphs, as you switch topics to the train leaving GCT and then go back to the previous topic in the next paragraph.

Saw your point. Reads better now.

• I really think making a turn onto Lakeview Avenue from the northbound parkway is too much detail for this article. What's relevant is that the parkway was closed, I don't think this adds anything to understanding the topic.

Tightened that a bit.

• Lakeview Avenue crossed the two tracks using a grade crossing should be "crossed the two tracks at a grade crossing". Also, grade crossing can be linked.

I made it "crossed the tracks at grade" and linked the whole phrase.

• After a crash at the Commerce Street crossing in 1984 that had killed the driver of the van involved remove "had".

Done.

• The sentences discussing Commerce Street should be consistent in tense, you use both present and past tense here.

I changed that "next crossing was" to "is"; obviously it's still there. Daniel Case (talk) 07:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Crash

• Why is there a citation after the word "Alan"?

I haved moved it to the end of the sentence. I suppose I might have left it there for some reason, perhaps temporarily, when I converted the NTSB report ref to {{sfn}}. Or there could have more near the beginning of the sentence. Daniel Case (talk) 05:55, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• Not liking the organization of the first paragraph. You start with the driver going up Commerce Street, then backtrack to her being on the Taconic and having to divert due to the crash. Consider reworking this paragraph to put events in order.

This took more work than anything else so far that's come up in this FAC. But that's why we have them.

• The same issue is apparent in the next paragraph, where the phone call is said to have taken place before the driver left the parkway at all.

I wound up rewriting those three grafs so everything's more in order. Daniel Case (talk) 03:08, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• Isn't it original research to say the claim of hearing a bell was wrong and sourcing it to the inspection report, a primary document? There's also nothing in the cited source to support in New York bells are only required for pedestrian crossings. Additionally, trains are often equipped with bells as a warning device. My advice here would be to simply say an inspection after the accident found the crossing was not equipped with a bell.

The NTSB report is clearer that there wasn't a bell at the crossing, and has a footnote explaining that this is not required. I have sourced that and limited the endnote wording to just what the sources say. (All the same, I don't know if the train bells would have been as audible as any crossing bells would have been had there been any).

• Hit the air brakes should be "applied the emergency brakes" as specified in the NTSB report.

Changed.

• Passengers in the first car recalled being thrown from their seats on impact as the fire started There hasn't been any mention of a fire until this point, so it should be "a fire".

Changed.

• until a manual override was sent Was this from dispatch at Grand Central? Can you specify who did the override?

The NTSB credits this to the office of Metro-North's power director. Absent another source saying that office is at Grand Central (which, of course, I wouldn't be surprised if it was), we can't say anything more than that. Daniel Case (talk) 03:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Pages 23-24 of the NTSB report say the power director's office is in Grand Central Terminal. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 19:54, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

It's on page 23. I have added it and appropriately amended the footnote. Daniel Case (talk) 06:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• Link the first mention of third rail.

Done. Daniel Case (talk) 03:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Victims

• Equity analyst is another MOS:SOB issue, since the reader would expect an article at equity analyst.

Changed to that. Daniel Case (talk) 07:55, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

• Will pick up from the end of the victims section. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 23:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Aftermath

• Can we have inflation templates for cost numbers? I've been victim to those requests many times at FAC, and now I get to inflict them on you (joking).

Oh, no problem. That hadn't occurred to me, actually, since it has been for most of the lifetime of this article so recent that one wouldn't think to include it. But, it has now been nearly ten years, so yes—and of course it's easy because I've done it on so many other articles.

• This is nitpicky, but I've never seen anyone use the spelling "high-rail" in the U.S., it's usually hi-rail or hirail.

I've always heard them called hi-los — the idea being that they're high relative to the tracks but low to the road. But ... that isn't in the lede of the linked article. So I went with hi-rail, which is.

• The interim pastor at Nadol's Church of St. Mary the Virgin, noted that communities like Chappaqua depend on commuter rail for economic and cultural reasons Is that comma necessary? It seems out of place to me but maybe there's some MOS thingy that says I'm wrong.

Took it out. I think at one point we had used his name, so his job description was an appositive phrase. Daniel Case (talk) 03:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Investigation

• Any chance we can say a bit more about the NTSB team? How many members, and how long did they ultimately stay?

I looked hard just now. All the NTSB's original press release says is that they're sending a "go-team" and who was heading it, but not exactly how many members. I suppose more detailed information might be in agency financial records, which although they're probably public are not the sort of thing routinely put online.

• If you can find room, it might be a good idea to show a photo of the contact shoe with the third rail to illustrate how it works. A photo showing how the third rails used by the MTA often have a cover might also be a good addition.

Hmm. I spent a lot of time considering how I might be able to do this after I first read this. I realized that it would be best to get such a shot—or even better, video—at a station with an adjacent grade crossing, of which of course there are several on the electrified portion of the Harlem Line vs. none on the shorter electrified portion of the Hudson Line. There, you can deal with the train slowing down and/or outright stopping to make it an easier shot.

Brewster seems like it would be ideal for this, as you've got the third rails on the outside and they run close to the crossing, and can be photographed or videoed from or through nearby fencing, particularly on the northeast and southwest corners. Plus it is conveniently the closest crossing/station pair to where I live (although still a bit of a drive).

I wish you'd raised this possibility a couple of weeks back, now that Metro-North has revived its annual Open House down at Croton-Harmon. It might have been easier to get this there.

Obviously, as you suggested, this doesn't have to be done now, but I like the idea and I think we can do it soon.

• reduce the possibility of inadvertent contact with the high-voltage rail Suggest making it clearer you are referring to contact of people (or wildlife or anything that isn't a train contact shoe) with the third rail, obviously you would want the contact shoe to make contact with the third rail. I understand what you're saying here, but it is kind of confusing when it comes immediately after the explanation that the under-running is meant to prevent ice from building up (and presumably causing problems for the contact shoes).

Added wording to that effect

• When listing the safety features in the second to last paragraph, you did not include the flashing lights though my understanding is they also worked correctly.

Added. Daniel Case (talk) 06:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Reports and conclusions

• It's the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, not Manual of. Easy mistake to make, I work with the MUTCD on a daily basis at my day job and if you told me it was "Manual of" I'd probably believe you. Probably why we all just call it the MUTCD at work.

Thanks! Changed.

• I looked through my copy of Train Wrecks by Robert C. Reed, and it does agree that collisions involving the rail coming through the bottom of a train car are very rare and have been since steel rails were widely adopted, but they were unfortunately a common occurrence when strap rail was used in the 1800s. He says the terminology for such an event in a train accident is a "snakehead". Not sure this means any changes are needed to the article but I figured you'd find it interesting.

I looked this up, thinking it might have made an interesting endnote. You can't cite Reed's book through Google Books, which of course doesn't mean you can't. However, in the process of looking for other mentions online, I came across this forum post, dated 1/26/21 04:35, which references a Railway Age article from 1900 which found these accidents to have been less common in the preceding century than believed, and faults first a Harper's article in the pre-Civil War era for creating a public hysteria about this, then the manufacturers of passenger cars for adroitly responding to this by putting steel plates below the floors of their cars but then furthering the hysteria by widely advertising that they did so.

• the third rails were designed to break up in accidents and fail to the side Should this be "fall"?

The NTSB report uses "fail" a lot in the cited passage, but yes, "fall" makes more sense to readers here so I changed it.

• You write But in this case, with only two exceptions, the third rail's 6-foot (2 m) sections had largely remained joined in larger sections averaging 39 feet (12 m) in length, weighing a ton (800 kg) each, as they accumulated in the first and second cars but the NTSB report says "Of the 11 sections of third rail recovered, five were about 39 feet in length" which seems to me to suggest something different.

I changed it to read as the report writes. Daniel Case (talk) 04:45, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Post-accident official responses

• The second sentence here is very long, I suggest splitting it into two.
• Can the section about proposed closing be updated? It doesn't clearly indicate if the crossings were closed or not.
• Why is Operation Lifesaver abbreviated as OLI (as opposed to OL)? This is not done in the NTSB report.

Litigation

• Most were from passengers injured or killed Suggest adding something along the lines of "or their surviving relatives".

Other

• There are two periods after the retrieval date for the external link, pretty sure there should only be one.
• That's about it for me. I'll do one more readthrough once you've responded to these comments and then I expect to be in support of promotion. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 19:54, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Generalissima

Very solid prose throughout. I took the liberty of fixing a few citation orders.

• In the paragraph beginning The call was dropped, you should say "Brody" instead of "she" for the first mention of her.

I went further. I changed it to "Alan's" per MOS:SAMESURNAME. Daniel Case (talk) 06:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• This also happens a couple times in the Driver's behavior.

Again per MOS:SAMESURNAME, I used "Allan" and "Ellen". Daniel Case (talk) 06:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• According to MOS:EMPHASIS, use em tags when italicizing for emphasis, like when you emphasize any under "Design of third rails".

Done. Daniel Case (talk) 06:48, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• I don't see any other problems. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:44, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Looks good to me - Support. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 18:53, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

EG

I will leave some comments later. I'm not sure if I can formally !vote on the nomination since I seem to have the second-most edits to this article, but I guess I'll ask the FAC coords when we reach that point. – Epicgenius (talk) 23:59, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I will just state for the record that I have no objections to you taking part. Daniel Case (talk) 20:42, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Lead:

• Para 2: "the first car" - More specifically, the first train car (since "car" can be misconstrued here for "private vehicle").

I went with "front car".

• Para 3: "Investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) focused on two issues in the accident: how the train passengers were killed, since that rarely occurs in grade crossing collisions; and why Brody went forward into the train's path." - I get why you used the semicolon; it may appear in lists with three or more items, where at least one item has a comma. However, it usually isn't used in lists with only two items. This would otherwise imply "and why Brody went forward into the train's path" is a standalone sentence, which it isn't. I suggest adding dashes, e.g. "how the train passengers were killed—since that rarely occurs in grade crossing collisions—and why Brody went forward into the train's path."
• Para 3: "town of Mount Pleasant, which maintains Commerce Street, Westchester County, the railroad, and the engineer" - Conversely, you can add semicolons here, e.g. "town of Mount Pleasant, which maintains Commerce Street; Westchester County; the railroad; and the engineer". This is because "which maintains Commerce Street" isn't a party to a lawsuit, but rather clarifying the town of Mount Pleasant's involvement in the lawsuit.

All done. Daniel Case (talk) 06:26, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Background:

• Para 1: "At about 5:30 p.m. on February 3, 2015, 14 minutes after sunset" - I'd change to "...fourteen minutes after sunset" or reword this to put more distance between "2015" and "14" per MOS:NUMNOTES, which advises to "avoid awkward juxtapositions" such as this one.
• Para 1: "both lanes of the southbound Taconic and one northbound lane" - How about "both southbound lanes and one northbound lane of the Taconic"?
• Para 2: " Bombardier M7A electric multiple units" - This is a pretty severe case of WP:SEAOFBLUE; there are three links in a row without any indicator that these links are separate. I would either put distance between these links (e.g. four M7A electric multiple units made by Bombardier) or remove two of them. Actually I see TAOT has mentioned this above.
• Para 3: "Lakeview Avenue crossed the two tracks using a grade crossing" - The wording "crossed...using a grade crossing" seems slightly repetitive. Is there a way to reword this?

I have addressed the first two; the latter were also pointed out by TAOT and I addressed them in response to his comments. And I want to thank you for refocusing my attention on this section, since looking at it while doing this brought to my attention not only a couple of minor copy errors but some awkwardness in the section as a whole (i.e., we mentioned Lakeview crossing "the tracks" well before we mentioned the train, and since we had said nothing about the line running parallel alongside the Taconic at that point a reader who, say, hasn't had the occasion in the years since the crash to go down to the site and walk around and take photographs, will have absolutely no understanding of this. Or, now, would have. Daniel Case (talk) 06:51, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

More tomorrow, probably. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:53, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

RoySmith

I reviewed this at PR I probably won't do another full review, but I'm happy to report that most of the issues I raised at that time, particularly those about going into excessive detail, have been addressed. I mentioned at PR my concern that an overwhelming number of the sources were from local news media immediately after the crash. I see that's still largely true. On the other hand for an article like this, that may simply be unavoidable; if those are the sources that exist, that's what we've got to use. I took the liberty of uploading a new version of the rail image, with some exposure adjustments which bring out the detail better.

Comments by ZKang123

Would give this a look.

Lead:

• Six people were killed and 15 others injured, seven very seriously. – The addition of the fact of "seven very seriously" sounds rather unencyclopedic and awkward. Might suggest rewording to: Six people were killed and 15 others injured, seven of whom sustained severe injuries.
• The sentences beginning with The crash occurred after traffic... and At the grade crossing, a sport utility vehicle (SUV) are quite wordy and could be broken up. Specifically, the first sentence took me some time to understand, that traffic from a certain road were rerouted to local roads following an incident.
• Brody died when her vehicle was struck by the train; as her vehicle was pushed along the tracks it loosened more than 450 feet (140 m) of third rail, which broke into sections and went through the exterior of the train's front car, killing five passengers and starting a fire. – Also this sentence could be rewritten as Brody died when the train struck her vehicle and pushed it on the tracks. The collision damaged over 450 feet (140 m) of the third rail, which led to a fire and caused the deaths of five additional passengers. Or whichever else that retains the meaning.
• With em-dashes it's not necessary for spaces—unless you're using en-dash.
• The board's 2017 final report found the driver of the SUV to be the cause of the accident. It found no defects with the vehicle, the crossing signals and associated traffic signal preemption, or the train engineer's performance. – The board's 2017 final report determined the driver of the SUV to be the cause of the accident, after finding no issues with the train engineer's performance or no defects with the vehicle, the crossing signals and associated traffic signal preemption.
• Remove the semi-colon and use a full-stop instead.
• I think in some way the board findings could be further summarised; not all the details need to be there. Especially when earlier you said the damaged third rail also killed the passengers.
• In 2024, a jury hearing one of the suits found the railroad and Brody liable for the accident. – I think "one of the suits" makes the sentence a bit confusing, and could be removed. I think the rewritten sentence In 2024, a jury hearing found the railroad... makes more sense.

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 04:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Independence Day (Nigeria)

Nominator(s): Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:05, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Nigeria's Independence Day, known colloquially as October First, is observed annually on 1 October to commemorate the country's independence from British rule in 1960. It marks the end of colonial governance and the establishment of Nigeria as a sovereign republic.

Disclosure: I plan on making sure this article appears on the main page as today's featured article for 1 October 2025 (I guess it's better to reserve the spot earlier :-)). So, I am literally ready to do any reasonable work suggested of any editor :) Thank you in advance of your comments and assistance. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:05, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Alt text shouldn't be identical to caption - it should supplement the caption for those unable to see the image

  I did some fixes to the alts, can you check and see if they're okay? thanks! --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  They're still pretty much the same as the captions - Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Accessibility/Alternative_text_for_images#How_to_write_alternative_text has some guidance that might be helpful. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:57, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria Can't I just write |alt=refer to caption since I cannot see how the alt text will not resemble the caption? If you do not think this is okay, then please suggest exactly how I can write the alt by using one of the images as an example. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  For example, for File:Nigerian_Day_Independence_,_NYC_-_2018.jpg, an alt could be "A group of girls wave Nigerian flags on a street corner"; you could add details about their attire, the woman, or the stalls in the background if you felt that was important. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:09, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria Thank you so much, this helped a lot. I have now fixed the alt texts. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• File:National_Pageant_1st_October_1960.jpg: where is this licensing coming from? Ditto File:Jaja-Wachuku,_Abubakar_Tafawa_Balewa_and_Princess_Alexandra_of_kent_on_Nigeria_s_Independence_Day_October_1,_1960.jpg, File:The_Prime_Minister,_Sir_Abubakar_Tafawa_Balewa_on_Independence_Day,_October_1,_1960.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:11, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria: These images are in the public domain because they're photographic works and 50 years have passed since their publication. c:Template:PD-Nigeria. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  These aren't tagged as PD-Nigeria, but as CC0 - if that's not correct the tagging should be changed, and for PD-Nigeria they'll also need a US tag and info on first publication. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:57, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Okay, I have tagged the images. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:29, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  You've changed the tagging to PD-Nigeria, but as noted you'll also need to add US tags and info on first publication. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:49, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria While checking for the US tags, I saw quite a handful. Can you point me to the exact one I should tag them with, please? Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  If you can identify where and when each was first published, the Hirtle chart will do exactly that. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria Great! That helped. I am using c:Template:PD-1996. The template only makes provision for putting the country code or name (NG in this case), but does not provide a parameter for first publication date. How can I put that? should I use the |reason= parameter to just mention the first publication date? Vanderwaalforces (talk) 10:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

  You can add publication details to the Source field in the image description. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:53, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria Great! Thank you so much for your guidance. I have not effected all corrections to the images. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not seeing any publication details on these images? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:28, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria Whoops, in my comment above, I meant "I have now effected". I have added the first publication dates, appropriate PD tags, etc. These were what you requested if I'm not mistaken? Vanderwaalforces (talk) 00:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

  In addition to the tagging change, we also need to know where and when these were published. I see dates, but not the where atm. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:06, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria I added publication place to the information templates now. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Can you be a bit more specific? If someone wanted to verify the date and place of publication, where could that be done? Is there a specific publication that can be cited? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:29, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria this is the point. These images are in the National Library of Nigeria, you literally can’t find anything about their publication details online, the few details I could find from the Library are the date and place (I could be more specific by using Lagos, Nigeria). Even the Library does not know the original authors, or rather they couldn’t identify the original authors. So, yeah. The best I can do now is add Lagos to the publication date. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 05:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  Is there an online record for these images on the library site? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria Yes, I found for two

  National Pageant: https://nigeriareposit.nln.gov.ng/items/18603459-3eaa-41fc-8f1d-21fc8b607547

  Balewa and co in balcony: https://nigeriareposit.nln.gov.ng/items/0ac3bce7-2b0c-46b0-828f-f53f0182750f

  I am yet to see the one he was waving. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 09:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria Done. I have linked the two, added Abuja, Nigeria as publication place (at least per the Library). The third image does not appear to be in their website so I did not link that one. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• Is it known that the date is publication rather than creation? I don't see that specified on the site. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria While it is just "Date" that is there, on the website there's a way to "Browse Resources", one way is by "Author", another is by "Title", another is by "Issue Date". This tells me that the "Date" there for these images are the "issue date" which is very likely the same as the publication date of the images and not the creation date, even though I think they are both the same date. I mean, if you ask me, the creation and publication date is the same thing, especially for these images. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 00:42, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria Please, would you look at this now? I have done what were suggested. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 17:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Could you elaborate on why you think the creation and publication date would be the same for these images? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:08, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria So, let’s say today’s Independence Day and we’re doing a national celebration. There would be photographs taken, these photographs taken would be sent to the media for publications?… highlighting what is happening or happened on this day. This is something that is normal. As a Nigerian, I know FOR SURE that these images were published that same day they were taken. I don’t know how else to explain this. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 00:28, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Sure, but that doesn't mean that every photograph taken on that day will end up in a publication - a photographer might take dozens of images and only publish one or two. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:30, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria okay, what do you suggest at this point? Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:45, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

UC

Always good to see a nomination for an article that pushes Wikipedia's interests and coverages a little wider, and looking at its history, it has clearly improved dramatically in the last ten days or so.

• There are a few sentences here which seem a bit "woolly" to me: when you think carefully about them, they're either saying something trivial or not really saying a whole lot. Some examples:
  • The day ... holds historical significance as the culmination of efforts for self-governance after decades of colonial rule, coming immediately after the sentence where we say the holiday commemorates independence from Britain.
  • marking Nigeria's entry into the international community as an independent state (again, we've just said that it was the day that Nigeria became independent, and this is the same thing in more words)
  • Over the years, Independence Day has continued to reflect Nigeria's political and social changes.: either needs fleshing out or cutting: the day hasn't, but perhaps the way it has been celebrated has.
  • The amalgamation of the Northern and Southern protectorates in 1914 was a key event in Nigeria's political history: why not just keep it to a factual statement that Nigeria was created by merging the two protectorates in 1914? If it was a key event for reasons above and beyond the obvious, we can say so, but I'm not sure it was.
  • The annual Independence Day celebrations offer an opportunity to reflect on the nation's history since 1960.
• A lot of the lead seems to discuss Nigerian independence and its post-independence history, rather than the subject of the article itself: see this lengthy section: Since independence, Nigeria has faced challenges, including political instability, civil conflict, and military coups. The Nigerian Civil War (1967–1970), also known as the Biafran War, was a significant conflict that had lasting effects on the nation's development. Despite these challenges, Nigeria has grown in regional and international influence. As Africa's most populous nation and one of its largest economies, Nigeria plays a prominent role in both regional and global affairs.
• Some of the language reads as promotional -- see for instance:
  • more inclusive activities that embrace Nigeria's cultural diversity
  • Despite these challenges, Nigeria has grown in regional and international influence.
  • Independence was achieved through negotiations with Britain, contrasting with other African nations that attained independence through conflict.
  • traditional dances, cultural displays, and parades highlighted Nigeria's diverse ethnic heritage
  • Balewa acknowledged the nation's diversity and honoured the efforts of Nigerian nationalists whose determination had made independence possible
  • The event also resonated across the African continent, symbolising Nigeria's entry into the growing list of newly independent states during the decolonisation wave
    • I fixed this one from the Independence in 1960 section. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
• More generally, the article needs a bit of a look for the "small stuff" like MoS and grammar: see for instance:
  • Is "October First" routinely double-capitalised in Nigerian English?
    • I take this as a noun, hence I am capitalising it because nouns are usually capitalised. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
      • Proper nouns are usually capitalised, but dates don't generally count as proper nouns. From a Google Books search, it looks as though Nigerian writers generally do use both capitals when referring to the holiday, rather than simply the date, so this is fine on either count. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 16:23, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
  • I don't think the "liturgical color" parameter in the infobox is quite right: that term has a particular Christian meaning.
    • I removed this parameter. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
  • The independence ceremony on 1 October 1960, was attended by international representatives: no comma needed here.
    • This was part of what I worked on, so we no longer have this statement; it is now Independence Day celebrations included an official ceremony in Lagos attended by Nigerian leaders and international representatives. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
  • with Secretary-General messages noting Nigeria's contributions: this isn't idiomatic English: better phrased as a straightforward sentence that Secretaries-General have issued messages (etc).
    • I worked on the entire section but particularly we now have with Secretaries-General issuing messages that commend Nigeria's contributions to. Is this okay?
  • Nigeria had been a British colony for more than sixty years: we don't actually put a start date on this, either here or in the article, but should. I appreciate it's a bit complicated, but there are known dates when the first bits of Nigeria came under British colonies, and when the last bits of Nigeria ceased to be independent, and neither of these are 1914.
    • I removed this entirely. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 14:01, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to stop there for now -- this is not an exhaustive list, but the broad points raised seem to run throughout the article, and I think it would be best to give you the chance to work on them before coming back to it. I note that it doesn't seem to have been nominated as a Good Article or been to Peer Review, and wonder if those might be good ports of call before an FAC run? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist Thank you so much for the comments, I will work on these now and let you know when I am done. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:36, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist I have worked on the lead significantly especially based on your comments. You might want to take a look at it while I will reply to your other comments inline based on status. Thank you again. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:11, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I can see changes, but am not sure that the balance has really shifted on the issues I raised, particularly regarding promotional tone. I'm going to oppose for now: it's not that it's a bad article (it's very far from that), but on the basis that I think the work needed to make it an FA would be best started elsewhere (in particular, one or several of Peer Review, a thorough Good Article Nomination, or the Guild of Copyeditors). I do sympathise, as editing your own writing for tone is not an easy business. Very much open to revisiting that vote if I am wrong and things change significantly, perhaps after a few more reviews. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 16:23, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist Ah, I was actually already working on a rewrite based on your comments, only to see this. I have incorporated my rewrite into the article, please you might want to check them out. They were especially based on the concerns your brought up above. I do not see the need of taking this through Peer review or GoCE when I am in the guild and I am a copyeditor myself. Although, I somehow agree that copyediting your own writing for tone can be hard. But please take a look, thanks again! Vanderwaalforces (talk) 19:15, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

OK -- I had misunderstood, in that case. I've just given it another re-read, and I don't see anything that I would like to change in my comments at this time. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 19:22, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

RB

Thank you for this nomination VWF. I will be doing a source text–entry statement integrity. Which means I will be verifying each statement against each source cited. If I am unable to access any source, I will ask you to send it to me, most likely, privately. From top to bottom, here are few:

Colonial era and path to independence

• Nigeria's road to independence was marked by British colonisation and the rise of nationalist movements seeking greater autonomy and representation. is cited to Falola & Heaton 2008 pp=154–155. While the source text verifies the rise of nationalist movements seeking autonomy and a cohesive national government, it does not explicitly support the complete context of "British colonisation" marking the road to independence. Something like this would be better, Nigeria's journey toward independence involved nationalist efforts, marked by the establishment of regional self-governance under the Lyttleton Constitution and the unification of diverse regional parties to form a national government.
  • done --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• British interests in resources, trade, and imperial expansion drove the colonization of Nigeria in the late 19th century. By 1914, the British administration merged the Northern and Southern protectorates with the Colony of Lagos to form Nigeria. While the unification spurred economic activities, it introduced centralized governance to diverse cultural groups, often leading to political tensions. is cited to Simwa 2020. The source supports the claim that British territorial expansion began with Lagos. It also confirms that the unification of the Northern and Southern Protectorates with Lagos occurred in 1914, forming what is now modern Nigeria. But, there is no specific mention in the source about "British interests in trade and imperial expansion" as the primary drivers of colonization efforts, nor does it provide direct evidence about the impact of centralized governance on economic activities and regional dynamics post-unification. Suggestion: British colonial involvement in Nigeria began with the annexation of Lagos in 1861, marking the start of direct influence over the region. In 1914, the British administration unified the Northern and Southern protectorates along with the Colony of Lagos, officially forming modern Nigeria. This unification laid the foundation for a centralized administrative structure across diverse regions.
  • done --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• In the early 20th century, Nigerian intellectuals and leaders, including Herbert Macaulay and Nnamdi Azikiwe, promoted political consciousness and questioned colonial policies. cited to Falola & Heaton 2008 p=140. Since the source text mainly emphasizes Herbert Macaulay's early role in Nigerian nationalist movements and his impact in Lagos, I suggest In the early 20th century, Herbert Macaulay and his followers in Lagos laid the groundwork for Nigerian nationalism, advocating for constitutional rights and increased political representation under colonial rule.
  • done --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• The establishment of the Nigerian Youth Movement (NYM) in the 1930s marked a call for increased political representation. cited to Falola & Heaton 2008 p=141. This checks out as the source correct supports this, but a slight adjustment could enhance clarity by including the NYM's original focus and subsequent expansion, like this The Nigerian Youth Movement (NYM), established in the 1930s, initially focused on educational reforms but quickly grew into a call for increased political representation and pan-Nigerian nationalism.
  • done --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• By the 1940s, the drive for independence had intensified, resulting in constitutional changes like the Richards Constitution of 1946, which allowed for limited Nigerian participation in governance. cited to Falola & Heaton 2008, p. 148 and Tignor 1998, p. 207. This checks out because both sources provide evidence that, by the 1940s, Nigeria's nationalist movement and desire for independence had gained momentum, and constitutional reforms were part of a response to this growing political consciousness. My 'suggestion By the 1940s, Nigeria's nationalist movement had intensified, leading to constitutional changes like the Richards Constitution of 1947, which expanded Nigerian representation in governance and introduced regional assemblies for the first time.
  • done --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd leave you with this for now. Best, Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 05:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for these, RB. I have done the above. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 11:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Vanderwaalforces, please, see more below. Best, Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 13:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• As nationalist pressure grew, the British implemented further reforms, including the Macpherson Constitution of 1951, which extended legislative representation, cited to Tignor 1998, p. 228; Falola & Heaton 2008, p. 152., and and the Lyttleton Constitution of 1954, which established a federal system. cited to Falola & Heaton 2008, p. 153. Falola & Heaton confirm that this constitution allowed Nigerian ministers and representatives from different regions, expanding the political structure to better include Nigerian voices in governance. Tignor also confirms that the Macpherson Constitution "magnified African electoral powers". Falola & Heaton p. 153 clearly states that the Lyttleton Constitution established Nigeria as a federation, with Lagos as a federal territory. This supports the second part of the statement. Suggested rephrasing for full verifiability; As nationalist pressure grew, the British implemented further reforms, including the Macpherson Constitution of 1951, which introduced regional assemblies and increased Nigerian representation in a central legislature. (Tignor 1998, p. 228; Falola & Heaton 2008, p. 152) The Lyttleton Constitution of 1954 established Nigeria as a federation, with Lagos designated as a federal territory. (Falola & Heaton 2008, p. 153' ')
  • done --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• Despite these steps, Nigerian leaders continued to demand full autonomy. Political organizations such as the National Council of Nigeria and the Cameroons (NCNC), the Action Group (AG), and the Northern People's Congress (NPC) emerged, representing various regional and ethnic interests. cited to Falola & Heaton 2008, pp. 144–145, 254. and Tignor 1998, pp. 235, 262–263. The text is largely verified concerning the NCNC and AG's emergence as political organizations representing regional interests, as detailed in both Falola & Heaton (pp. 144-145, 254) and Tignor (pp. 235, 262-263). However, there is no direct mention of the Northern People's Congress (NPC) in the provided pages, nor explicit references to continued demands for full autonomy. Suggested rephrasing is Despite colonial attempts at reform, Nigerian leaders pursued further autonomy. The National Council of Nigeria and the Cameroons (NCNC) under Nnamdi Azikiwe became prominent in advocating for a pan-Nigerian identity, while the Action Group (AG) and other emerging groups began representing distinct regional and ethnic interests.
  • done --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• Leaders like Obafemi Awolowo, Ahmadu Bello, and Azikiwe played notable roles in advocating for self-governance. The source does support parts of the statement but omits specific mention of "self-governance." Instead, it mentions that these leaders "began to organize to pressure the colonial government for greater representation for Nigerians in their own governance and for an eventual end to colonial rule in Nigeria." This indicates a movement towards nationalist goals and independence rather than the specific term "self-governance". Suggestion, Leaders like Obafemi Awolowo, Abubakar Tafawa Balewa, and Azikiwe led nationalist movements, advocating for greater representation of Nigerians in governance and pushing for eventual independence from British rule.
  • done --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• Following extended negotiations, the British agreed to Nigeria's independence. → Following significant negotiations and diplomatic efforts, the British agreed to grant Nigeria independence. This phrasing more closely aligns with the source by describing the process as significant without implying any direct cause-effect relationship beyond what is mentioned in Simwa 2020.
  • done --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• Several constitutional conferences were held in London and Lagos, where regional leaders deliberated on governance structures for the future nation. → Nigeria's independence movement was characterized by numerous constitutional discussions and conferences, beginning as early as the 1940s. Regional leaders, both from the South and North, engaged in deliberations with British officials on the governance structures for Nigeria's future. This revision aligns better with the content from both Simwa and Okoro, who describe the historical context and the contributions of key nationalists in advocating for Nigeria's self-governance.
  • done --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• In 1959, Nigeria held its first general election, where the NPC won a majority and formed a coalition government, with Abubakar Tafawa Balewa as Prime Minister. This coalition set Nigeria on its path to full independence, achieved on 1 October 1960. → In 1959, Nigeria held a federal election in which the NPC won the largest number of seats. A coalition government was formed between the NPC and NCNC, with Abubakar Tafawa Balewa as Prime Minister. This coalition led to Nigeria's independence on 1 October 1960, with Balewa addressing the nation on this historic day. The original statement is correctly verified but could be refined for precise accuracy. The sources emphasize the NPC-NCNC coalition as a necessary step toward independence rather than as setting "Nigeria on its path to full independence."
  • done --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 13:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Reading Beans Done. Thanks! Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Vanderwaalforces, check below. Best, Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 16:06, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Independence in 1960

• The formal declaration of Nigerian independence on 1 October 1960 marked the end of British colonial rule and the establishment of Nigeria's self-governance. Ceremonies in Lagos included dignitaries from around the world who observed the transition of power. The article statement is partly verified. There is no explicit mention of dignitaries from around the world attending ceremonies in Lagos in Falola & Heaton (2008, p. 156), but Shuaibu 2023 verifies that, so put Falola & Heaton at the end of "self-governance" and put Shuaibu 2023 at the end of "transition of power".
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 21:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• Princess Alexandra of Kent, representing Queen Elizabeth II, presented the constitutional documents that ended British authority, concluding years of negotiations driven by Nigerian nationalist movements. While both sources (Balewa 2020 and Shuaibu 2023) confirm Princess Alexandra's role in delivering constitutional instruments as a symbol of independence, neither explicitly attributes her presence to "concluding years of negotiations driven by Nigerian nationalist movements." So let's omit that and we would now have Princess Alexandra of Kent, representing Queen Elizabeth II, presented the constitutional documents that ended British authority.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 21:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• During the ceremony, Nigeria's new green and white flag was raised, replacing the Union Jack to signal the nation's new sovereignty. verified
• Public spaces were adorned for the occasion, and events included traditional dances, cultural displays, and parades celebrating Nigeria's ethnic diversity. verified
• In his speech, Abubakar Tafawa Balewa focused on themes of unity, national development, and responsibility, expressing hope for the country's future as a cohesive and independent nation. He acknowledged the diverse backgrounds of Nigeria's people and praised the efforts of nationalists who had worked toward independence. → In his Independence Day speech, Abubakar Tafawa Balewa expressed "joy and pride" at Nigeria's new status as an "independent sovereign nation" and acknowledged the "selfless labours" of those who had contributed to the nation's progress. He described the journey to independence as "purposefully and peacefully planned with full and open consultation" and emphasised the "great task" of responsibly representing Nigeria on the "world stage". Balewa also paid tribute to various contributors, including British officials and local figures, thanking them "for your devoted service, which helped build Nigeria into a nation". He expressed gratitude to Queen Elizabeth II and the Commonwealth, concluding with a declaration: "I open a new chapter in the history of Nigeria, and of the Commonwealth, and indeed of the world".
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 21:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• Following independence, Nigeria joined the United Nations and the British Commonwealth, formalising its position in global affairs. cited to Weaver (1961, pp. 146, 153, 157). The cited pages from Weaver indeed discuss Nigeria's entry into the British Commonwealth and the United Nations, as well as the implications of these memberships. But they do not directly state that these memberships "formalised [Nigeria’s] position in global affairs." Instead, Weaver's text elaborates on the specific benefits, opportunities, and challenges Nigeria faced within these organizations, as well as the country's strategic position within the Commonwealth as part of a non-aligned, Afro-Asian bloc. The source emphasizes economic and strategic advantages for Nigeria but does not summarize the memberships as a formalization of its global position. → Following independence, Nigeria joined the United Nations and the British Commonwealth, gaining economic and strategic advantages, as well as the opportunity to engage with other nations on issues of global significance.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 21:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• As one of the largest African nations to gain independence at the time, Nigeria's status was notable among other newly independent countries during the period of decolonisation in Africa. → On October 1, 1960, Nigeria became a fully sovereign state, marking a significant moment in Africa's decolonization process, as one of the continent's most populous nations achieved independence. Falola & Heaton (2008, p. 156) does describe Nigeria's independence and highlights its significance. However, it does not directly mention Nigeria's "notable status" among other newly independent nations in Africa. Instead, it focuses on the events leading to independence, the roles of Tafawa Balewa and Nnamdi Azikiwe, and some of the challenges facing Nigeria at the time, such as regionalism and ethnic divisions.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 21:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 16:06, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Done, thanks! Vanderwaalforces (talk) 21:41, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

We’re almost there. Please, see below. Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 00:52, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Post-independence era

• In the years after independence, Nigeria faced challenges in building stable governance structures and addressing economic and social disparities. → Independence Day in Nigeria serves as an occasion for reflection on the nation's progress, with government broadcasts reviewing achievements, challenges, and future aspirations annually. This revision aligns more directly with the content in Simwa 2020 and Olaniyan 2016 p. 105, focusing on Independence Day's role in reflecting on the nation's journey rather than explicitly detailing post-independence governance and economic challenges.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
• The federal system, adapted from the colonial model, aimed to support regional autonomy but also underscored significant ethnic tensions among major groups, particularly the Hausa, Yoruba, and Igbo, who were competing for political power. The Al Jazeera source does not explicitly mention that Nigeria's federal system was adapted from the colonial model to support regional autonomy. It does discuss Nigeria's three-part division under colonial rule and highlights regional divisions, but it does not directly link these divisions to the goal of supporting autonomy. It also does discuss the ethnic divisions and power struggles among the Hausa-Fulani, Yoruba, and Igbo. It describes how tribalism and ethnic divisions were pronounced at independence, including how ethnic groups vied for political dominance, leading to military intervention and civil conflict. Suggested rephrase is Upon gaining independence, Nigeria's federal structure divided the country into three main regions dominated by the Hausa, Yoruba, and Igbo.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
• These divisions contributed to political instability and a series of military coups, beginning with the January 1966 coup and leading to the Nigerian Civil War from 1967 to 1970. → These divisions contributed to political instability and the January 1966 coup which later escalated into the Nigerian Civil War from 1967 to 1970.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
• Following the civil war, the government focused on national reconstruction. Yakubu Gowon, who assumed power after the January 1966 coup, introduced a three-year national development plan, with initiatives intended to address economic disparities and encourage national unity. His 1970 Independence Day address, shortly after the war's end, emphasized peace and the need for national rebuilding. The statement is only partially verified by the text from Ugo (2017). While the source indeed references Yakubu Gowon's emphasis on national unity, peace, and the need for development, it does not explicitly state a "three-year national development plan" or mention "initiatives to address economic disparities." Furthermore, the source text presents a set of five national objectives in a broader, more aspirational sense rather than concrete initiatives targeting economic disparities. Suggested rephrase, Following the civil war, the government focused on national reconstruction. Yakubu Gowon, who assumed power after the January 1966 coup, introduced a National Development Plan with objectives to foster unity, strengthen the economy, and create equal opportunities for all citizens. In his 1970 Independence Day address, shortly after the war's end, Gowon emphasized peace and the importance of building a "united, strong, and self-reliant nation" as part of Nigeria's future direction.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
• In the 1970s, Nigeria became increasingly involved in regional affairs, supporting various African independence movements. cited to Tignor (1998, p. 268.) does not verify this statement. But I found a source your might consider using to backup this statement; <ref>{{sfn|Nagar|Paterson|2012|p=8}} "During the 1960s and 1970s, Nigeria took a leading role in supporting black liberation movements in Southern Africa, including the African National Congress (ANC).</ref>. Full citation * {{cite techreport | last=Nagar | first=Dawn | last2=Paterson | first2=Mark | title=The Eagle and the Springbok: Strengthening the Nigeria/South Africa Relationship | year=2012 | jstor=resrep05152.6 | url=http://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep05152.6 | access-date=8 November 2024}}.
  • Thank you, I used {{harvnb}} because it works best. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
• The country's oil boom brought economic opportunities but also introduced challenges such as corruption and inflation, issues that would persist in the following decades. The Al Jazeera source mentions that while Nigeria's oil wealth increased government revenue and showed potential for prosperity, this was marred by extensive corruption and economic mismanagement, which kept much of the population in poverty. However, the source does not explicitly mention inflation as a consequence of the oil boom, nor does it directly attribute the emergence of economic "opportunities" solely to the oil boom. Suggested rephrase, The country's oil wealth increased government revenues, but widespread corruption and mismanagement kept most Nigerians impoverished, issues that continued in the following decades.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
• These challenges contributed to political instability, resulting in additional periods of military rule, including under Ibrahim Babangida, whose administration initiated limited democratic reforms. Olaniyan (2016, p. 104) focuses on the genre of Independence Day broadcasts in Nigeria, analyzing them from a linguistic perspective, specifically through Babangida's speeches, as a genre of political discourse. It does mention Babangida's regime as a significant period for transitioning to democracy in Nigeria, but it does not directly state that his administration "initiated limited democratic reforms" or connect his regime's significance specifically to challenges contributing to political instability and military rule. Suggested rephrase, These challenges contributed to political instability, which continued through various military regimes. Under Ibrahim Babangida, a significant focus was placed on political discourse, as reflected in his Independence Day broadcasts, which symbolized the period’s role in transitioning toward democracy.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
• Independence Day remains a significant annual event, with leaders often using the occasion to address themes of unity and national development. The day provides an opportunity for reflecting on Nigeria's progress and the ongoing efforts to achieve stability and cohesion. → Independence Day is celebrated annually as a reminder of Nigeria's journey to freedom, marked by events that foster unity and national pride. It is an occasion for Nigerians to reflect on their shared heritage and express hope for the country's future. This revised statement more accurately mirrors the source's emphasis on unity, pride, and celebration without introducing themes not present in the text.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 00:52, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Done, thank you! Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Let’s move on. Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 14:04, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

National celebration events

• Independence Day in Nigeria includes events that highlight the nation's history, unity, and cultural heritage. The statement is only partially verified by the sources. While both sources imply a historical focus, only the parades and ceremonial events in Toromade et al. indirectly relate to unity and national pride. However, neither explicitly mentions "cultural heritage." Suggested rephrase, Independence Day in Nigeria features events that commemorate the nation's history and promote a sense of unity through nationwide celebrations.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• The primary celebrations take place in Abuja, with officials, military personnel, and citizens in attendance. Central to the observance is a military parade displaying the capabilities of Nigeria's armed forces, followed by cultural performances that feature traditional dance and music from various ethnic groups, underscoring the country's cultural diversity." cited to Shuaibu 2023. Suggested rephrase to remove Abuja because we don't have that in the source, A central feature of Nigeria's Independence Day celebrations is a military parade with soldiers marching and military bands performing. Additionally, cultural performances featuring traditional dance and music occur across the country.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• The ceremonial raising of the Nigerian flag is conducted to represent national sovereignty. Suggested rephrasing, As part of Nigeria's Independence Day celebrations, a ceremonial raising of the Nigerian flag takes place, accompanied by other festivities.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• The President of Nigeria also delivers a national address that addresses recent achievements, current issues, and goals for the future. Suggested rephrasing, The President of Nigeria also delivers a national address as part of the Independence Day celebrations.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• This speech, broadcast nationwide, often focuses on themes of unity and development, marking the significance of independence in Nigeria's national identity. Suggested rephrasing, This speech, broadcast nationwide, often reflects on challenges facing the nation, such as economic recession and security concerns, and outlines goals for governance and economic stability.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 14:04, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Done, thanks! Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:10, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• Local celebrations occur across Nigeria, with communities organising gatherings and events. remove this sentence, we have this already in the first paragraph of this section.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:00, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• Schools hold activities like essay contests and debates on Nigerian history, aiming to foster awareness among young people. this is currently unverifiable even though it is true. For the sake of verifiability, I suggest rephrasing to In Oyo State, an essay competition was organized for primary and secondary school pupils as part of Independence Day celebrations, encouraging students to engage with current challenges in Nigeria, such as insecurity in the 21st century. and cited to {{sfn|Babalola|2019}}. Full citation * {{cite web | last=Babalola | first=Ademola | title=Independence: Oyo organises essay competition | website=[[The Punch]] | date=26 September 2019| url=https://punchng.com/independence-oyo-organises-essay-competition/ | access-date=10 November 2024}}
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:00, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• Traditional meals, such as jollof rice and plantains, are commonly shared during these gatherings. verified.
• In Lagos, streets and public spaces are decorated in Nigeria's national colours, and events such as concerts and public festivals draw crowds from different regions. Suggest rephrasing to In Lagos, Independence Day is celebrated with events such as military parades and cultural performances, showcasing Nigeria's heritage and drawing large crowds.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:00, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• Fireworks displays in several cities are a common way to conclude the day, representing optimism for Nigeria's future. verified.

Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 06:47, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@Reading Beans Done, thanks! Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:01, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Regional and global celebrations

• The Nigerian diaspora also observes Independence Day, particularly in countries with large Nigerian communities, including the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, and several African nations. Remove "several African nations" here so that we now have The Nigerian diaspora also observes Independence Day, particularly in countries with large Nigerian communities, including the United States, the United Kingdom, and Canada.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• In the United Kingdom, an annual parade in London brings together Nigerians dressed in traditional attire, with celebrations that include music, dance, and cultural displays, often concluding at Trafalgar Square. The source text from The Sun Nigeria 2022 describes a rally in London organized by Nigerians in the UK for Nigeria's 62nd Independence Anniversary, with a focus on supporting Peter Obi's presidential campaign. There is mention of a march through central London, including Trafalgar Square, but no details about traditional attire, cultural celebrations, music, or dance. Suggested rephrase, In the United Kingdom, Nigerians gathered in London to mark Nigeria’s 62nd Independence Anniversary with a march through central London, including stops at Trafalgar Square, the Nigerian High Commission, and 10 Downing Street.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• In New York City, Independence Day celebrations have occurred annually since 1991, featuring parades and cultural presentations. verified. But suggested rephrase, In New York City, Nigerians have celebrated Independence Day annually since 1991 with a large parade and cultural presentations, including music, food, and dance, making it the largest Nigerian gathering outside of Nigeria. This rephrasing clarifies the event's scope and reflects the cultural aspects more accurately, as described in the source.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• In Canada, the Province of Manitoba officially recognises Nigerian Independence Day, hosting yearly events that celebrate Nigerian culture and acknowledge the contributions of Nigerian communities within the province. The statement is partially verified but needs adjustments for complete accuracy. The source confirms that the Province of Manitoba introduced a bill to formally recognize Nigerian Independence Day, but it does not state that Manitoba "officially recognises" it yet (as it's still a proposed bill). Additionally, while the source mentions celebrating Nigerian culture and contributions, there is no indication of established annual events as implied by "yearly events." Suggested rephrase, In Canada, the Province of Manitoba introduced a bill in 2024 to formally recognise Nigerian Independence Day, aiming to celebrate Nigerian culture and acknowledge the contributions of Nigerian communities within the province.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Global recognition and statements

• Nigeria's Independence Day often receives international recognition, with messages released by world leaders on 1 October. U.S. Presidents have traditionally extended congratulations to Nigeria, often highlighting democratic values and cooperative relations between the two nations. In 2023, Joe Biden acknowledged Nigeria's significant role in Africa and affirmed a commitment to ongoing collaboration on mutual priorities, including security, democracy, and economic growth. verified.
• The United Nations has also marked Nigeria's Independence Day, with Secretaries-General issuing statements that recognise Nigeria's contributions to peacekeeping and its influence in regional stability. The statement, as written, is not fully verified by the provided source texts from Weaver (1961). The source discusses Nigeria's role in international relations through its membership in the United Nations and the Commonwealth, and it recognizes Nigeria's potential influence in global affairs alongside other Afro-Asian nations. However, it does not specifically mention the UN marking Nigerian Independence Day or issuing statements by Secretaries-General recognizing Nigeria's contributions to peacekeeping and regional stability. Suggested rephrase, Following independence, Nigeria joined the United Nations and the Commonwealth, participating in international affairs alongside other Afro-Asian nations.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• Leaders from the United Kingdom, frequently acknowledging Nigeria's historical ties and membership within the Commonwealth of Nations, have expressed support on this day. remove this statement entirely.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• We can now merge both subsections (Regional and global celebrations, and Global recognition and statements) into a single subsection called Global celebrations and international recognition.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 15:57, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@Reading Beans Done, thank you. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Notable speeches and statements

• All contents of this section verified, so this checks out.

1992 C-130 crash

• verified.

Political tensions and social challenges

• Please remove the first paragraph because it isn't directly relate to the Independence Day.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:36, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• On 1 October 2010, Nigeria's 50th Independence anniversary was disrupted by twin bombings at Eagle Square in Abuja, where official celebrations were being held. The attack resulted in casualties and was claimed by the Movement for the Emancipation of the Niger Delta, which cited grievances with government policies in the Niger Delta. The incident highlighted security concerns and affected the tone of the jubilee celebrations, leading to increased security measures at public events in subsequent years. verified, but I suggest you remove "leading to increased security measures at public events in subsequent years" as it is not directly mentioned in the source.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:36, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• Economic challenges have also impacted Independence Day messages and public sentiment. During the economic recession of 2016, President Muhammadu Buhari addressed the nation, acknowledging the difficulties facing Nigerians and encouraging resilience. Independence Day speeches have increasingly become platforms for addressing significant economic and social issues, reflecting the challenges facing Nigerians. verified.

This should be all with the source-text integrity. I am happy you've been able work on my suggestions so far. Please ping me when you sort these out. Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 04:40, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

@Reading Beans Done, thank you. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:37, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Support — looks good to me. Good work. Best, Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 22:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Ibjaja055

• Support with the following reasons:

1. Well-Written: The prose is engaging, clear, and professional. The language is precise, and complex historical developments are explained in an accessible manner. Transitions are smooth, making the narrative easy to follow for readers with varying familiarity with Nigerian history.
2. Comprehensive: The article covers all key aspects of Nigeria’s Independence Day, including its historical context, celebrations, global impact, and associated speeches. It details the colonial era, Nigeria’s path to independence, and ongoing commemorations. Each section provides necessary context, with major facts and events well-integrated, leaving no significant gaps in the narrative.
3. Well-Researched: This is a thoroughly researched article, reflecting a balanced survey of the relevant literature. Claims are verifiable, with reliable sources, such as primary speeches, historical accounts, and news reports. Citations are appropriately used throughout, supporting claims and ensuring accuracy in details about independence and subsequent celebrations.
4. Neutral: The article maintains a neutral tone, presenting information objectively without any evident bias. It gives fair coverage to all perspectives, including government narratives, the significance of independence for Nigerians, and international viewpoints, without favoring any particular stance.
5. Stable: There is no evidence of ongoing edit conflicts or instability within the content. The article appears well-established, with content changes likely limited to routine updates rather than edit wars or major revisions.
6. Copyright Compliance and Plagiarism-Free: The article complies with Wikipedia’s copyright policy. It shows no signs of plagiarism or too-close paraphrasing, and all information is rephrased accurately from sources, ensuring originality and integrity. When I ran it through plagiarism detector, the result was 23.1 percent which is violation unlikely
7. Style Guidelines:
Lead: The article has a concise and informative lead section that effectively introduces the topic and prepares readers for the detailed sections.
Structure: It follows a logical and balanced structure, with section headings that are clear, hierarchical, and easy to navigate.
Citations: Inline citations are consistently formatted, contributing to the article’s credibility. The references are clear, using footnotes and maintaining consistency.
8. Media: The article includes well-chosen images in each heading with appropriate captions which also enhance the reader’s understanding of Nigeria’s Independence Day celebrations. All media appear to have acceptable copyright statuses, in line with Wikipedia’s policies. Three out of the five images used are in the public domain and the other two are listed under CC by SA 2.0 and 3.0.

9. Length: The article remains focused, avoiding unnecessary detail. It effectively uses a summary style to cover events without overwhelming the reader, maintaining a balance that allows depth without excessive elaboration. Ibjaja055 (talk)

Coordinator note

Please note the bit of the FAC instructions starting "Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as Done and Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives ..." Thanks Gog the Mild (talk) 17:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Support from Crisco 1492

• Nigeria's Independence Day, often called October First, is a public holiday in Nigeria observed on 1 October each year. - What's the point of repeating Nigeria twice in the same sentence? Overall, I am seeing quite a few repetitions of the word... some reworking of sentences may help.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 14:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• Per MOS:BTW, we should link words on their first occurrence. The link to Nigeria doesn't meet this guidelines, and some others may not either.
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:46, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• File:National Pageant 1st October 1960.jpg - We have a caption of our own. I'd crop out the embedded caption
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 17:27, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• File:Jaja-Wachuku, Abubakar Tafawa Balewa and Princess Alexandra of kent on Nigeria s Independence Day October 1, 1960.jpg - We have a caption of our own. I'd crop out the embedded caption
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 17:27, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• Abubakar Tafawa Balewa - I'd mention "Prime Minister" or another position to show why his feedback was important
  • nixed. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:47, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• In Oyo State, an essay competition was organised for primary and secondary school pupils as part of Independence Day celebrations, encouraging students to engage with current challenges in Nigeria, such as insecurity in the 21st century. - Is this a regular occurrence? Do other states not do this?
  • Crisco 1492: Yes, it appears to be a regular occurrence in Oyo: 2019, 2023, 2021, etc.

It also seem to happen in other states but most likely not a regular occurrence-ish. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:24, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• I'm seeing some overlinking in the international celebrations section
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:51, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• File:The Prime Minister, Sir Abubakar Tafawa Balewa on Independence Day, October 1, 1960.jpg - - We have a caption of our own. I'd crop out the embedded caption
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 17:27, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• Notable speeches and statements - A lot of these paragraphs are small and could be merged
  • done. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• The attack resulted in casualties - How many?
  • done. Eight people, added to the section. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Overall, quite tight.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:13, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@Crisco 1492 Thanks for your comment, I have started addressing them. Please what do you mean by "Abubakar Tafawa Balewa - I'd mention "Prime Minister" or another position"? where should I mention Prime Minister? Vanderwaalforces (talk) 15:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

On his first mention, the reader doesn't have any context as to why his remarks matter. He is identified later in the article, but not at first mention. Hence I'd use "Prime Minister Abubakar Tafawa Balewa" or something similar at the first mention.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 15:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@Crisco 1492 So, the first mention of him was at Leaders like Obafemi Awolowo, Abubakar Tafawa Balewa, and Azikiwe led nationalist movements... the third paragraph of the Colonial era... section, do you think it would be logical to mention that here? Because at this point, he was not prime minister yet, but on the second mention at the fourth paragraph A coalition government was formed between the NPC and NCNC, with Abubakar Tafawa Balewa as Prime Minister the fact was established. Although, in the lead he also appeared there but logically he was still not PM yet in that sentence. What do you think? Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• Yeah, nix that. With the extra link (I think he's linked three times in four paragraphs) I had assumed that his first mention was in #Independence in 1960. The overlinking could use work. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Crisco 1492 thank you, I fixed the OLINK with Balewa and some others. --Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:46, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Also noting that I have fixed other things except the images which I will have to do in Wikimedia Commons, I am being limited because I am unable to overwrite existing files. I have requested help though. I have now cropped them all. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:55, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• Thank you. Supporting on prose... not being familiar with Nigeria, I can't speak to comprehensiveness, but this reads really well and gives a good understanding of the subject and its context.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 19:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

2009–10 Notts County F.C. season

Nominator(s): Eric Idle's Cat (talk) 14:10, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Have you ever wondered what happens when a struggling lower league football club is taken over as part of an elaborate attempt to defraud (among others) the North Korean government? Well, as far fetched as that might sound, you can find out! This article is about Notts County's 2009–10 season, a hugely successful one on the field, but one largely overshadowed by off-field events, as the club found itself unwittingly embroiled in a massive attempted fraud. This was unquestionably the most bizarre season in Notts County's (and maybe any football club's) history, and the story is complex and sometimes scarcely believable, but I hope I've been able to bring it all together in a sensible and understandable way. All comments and feedback gratefully received. Eric Idle's Cat (talk) 14:10, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Suggest adding alt text. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:43, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks - alt text added Eric Idle's Cat (talk) 08:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Placeholder

Putting my name down to do a review of this one -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:56, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Initial comments

• "the club were subject to a high-profile takeover" - although whether to treat a football club as singular or plural is a bit nebulous in British English, I would say that in this case the club is being referred to as a corporate entity and should therefore be singular
• That's all I got on the lead - more to follow! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:35, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Chris, the above is now amended. Eric Idle's Cat (talk) 13:31, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

More comments

• "Green "sold" his stake in the club to the Trust for £75,000" - why is "sold" in quote marks? If a transaction occurred in exchange for money, that seems like a pretty straightforward sale to me.....

Quotation marks removed

• "It was relegated from Division Two (now EFL League One) in 2004" - as the name changed in 2004, I think you could avoid the need for brackets if you frame it as "It was relegated to EFL League One in 2004"

Changed

• "as this would not be a sale, no money would need to be paid to the estate of Haydn Green" - I'm unclear why money would ever have needed to be paid to his estate - didn't he sell his shares to the Trust before he died?

I've edited the background section above to clarify that the money would become due to Green's estate in the event of his death.

• That's what I got as far as the end of the "Pre-season events" section - back for more later! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:28, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

These are now addressed. If there's anything further you need clarifying from these let me know. Eric Idle's Cat (talk) 09:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

• " the second 2–2 at home to Torquay United, a result which left the team in fifth place" => pedantically, "the team" here could refer to either Notts or Torquay

I've switched to "the Magpies" to make it clear that this refers to Notts.

• "The club's off-field was by now deteriorating rapidly" - think there's a word or words missing after "off-field"

Word added

• "it was reported that Trembling was planning a management buyout of the club,[90] that Eriksson was on the verge of resigning,[91] and Armstrong-Holmes admitte" => "it was reported that Trembling was planning a management buyout of the club,[90] and that Eriksson was on the verge of resigning,[91] and Armstrong-Holmes admitte"

Done

• "it became apparent that the club were subject to a new winding-up petition" - I think "the club was" here per my earlier comment
• Suggest linking "brace" to somewhere appropriate on first usage

Done

• "Due to be played in the midst of Trembling's efforts to find a new buyer for the club, he had reportedly hoped" - don't think this works grammatically. Try "As the match was due to be played in the midst of Trembling's efforts to find a new buyer for the club, he had reportedly hoped"

Done

• "company with reserves of $1.9trillion" - think there should be a non-breaking space between 9 and trillion
• "supposedly worth $2billion" - same here
• Same for all the million amounts in the last section

All done

• "At a later hearing, Jersey authorities ordered he pay £322,212" => "At a later hearing, Jersey authorities ordered that he pay £322,212"
• That's all I got in the rest of the article. Great work!! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:54, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to read through Chris, these are all now addressed. Eric Idle's Cat (talk) 19:30, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

SC

Comments to follow. - SchroCat (talk) 19:43, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

• "attempts to recover often referenced the events of 2009": "often refer to" would be much better

Changed

• Page ranges in the references should not be "p. 127–8", but "pp. 127–128"

I've gone through and reformatted where necessary.

Sorry, I misread your point on this one. Thanks for going back through it for me.

• "buying the Magpies" -> "buying the club"
• Unbeknownst -> Unbeknown

Changed

• "suggested Brazil international and World Cup winner Roberto Carlos" -> "the Brazil international. This is supposed to be in formal, encyclopaedic English, so the definite article should be used. Journalists and Americans drop it altogether (which is fine for them), but not here

Definite article added

• "Campbell did not play immediately, and Notts were beaten 1–0 at Barnet in their final match of the month". This is a comma splice which appears to be connecting two unconnected events.

I've rewritten the sentence to remove the reference to Campbell.

• "Early in September, the Magpies strengthened" -> "Early in September, Notts County strengthened" (try and use the nickname sparingly, and best not when 'introducing' the club at the start of a new paragraph)

Changed

• "wealth was not real, and defender": this would be better as "wealth was not real; the defender"

Changed

• "Early November brought new revelations about the club's finances when it was revealed that Notts County's": too journalistic. "In early November it was revealed that Notts County's" is more succinct

Changed

• "one often repeated story is of the club being unable to pay even the local milkman": Too journalistic – and who cares about a repeated story: it's supposed to be a coverage of known facts, not repeated stories

I've removed the milkman anecdote.

• "buyout of the club, and that Eriksson was on the verge of resigning, and Armstrong-Holmes admitted" and...and... This needs rewriting
• "Holmes admitted": 'Admit' has overtones of confessing to a crime (see MOS:SAID)

I've split the above into a couple of sentences and replaced 'admit'.

• "The two men "scoured Europe", as the Press Association put it": Not sure why we need peacocky journalistic language here. This can be rewritten in good English without the hyperbole

Rewritten

• "saw the Magpies move" -> "saw Notts County move"

Changed

• "gifted the Magpies": I'm not sure there was a "gift", so formal language would be better

Changed

• "league leaders Rochdale" -> "the league leaders Rochdale"

Definite article added

• "this 3–2, meaning the Magpies" 'and' instead of 'meaning' would be better

Changed

• "by BBC journalist" -> "by the BBC journalist"
• "a decade later, journalist" -> "a decade later, the journalist" – ditto for Levine and Southall in the same sentence

Definite articles added

• "and Trembling would admit to Marshall": see above about "admit", but why "would admit", rather than "admitted".

Changed

At the moment it's a good article, but the prose is a bit flabby and journalistic in places. I'll go over it all again once these points have been addressed. - SchroCat (talk) 05:53, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks for the feedback, the above has now been addressed. Eric Idle's Cat (talk) 13:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

A final few comments on another readthrough:

• "Former England manager Sven-Göran Eriksson" ->"The former England manager Sven-Göran Eriksson" (twice: once in the lead, once in the body)

Definite articles added

• "the Trust apparently did not ask": I'm never happy to see "apparently" in WP's voice: best if this could be attributed inline

I've reworded this paragraph so there's an in-line attribution to the source.

• "Goodley was quickly tipped off": do you mean "quickly"? Literally this is saying someone told him very fast. "Soon", maybe?

Changed

• "at Notts County's Meadow Lane": slightly confusing unless you what Meadow Lane is. "at Notts County's Meadow Lane ground", or "Meadow Lane stadium" or similar would help

I've added stadium here

• "stuck in mud before crossing the goal line": Needs reframing as it reads like it was temporarily stuck but also crossed the line

I've switched 'before' to 'without'.

• "Early in January, it became apparent that the club was subject to a new winding-up petition issued by HMRC": What was the actual situation at the time, because the weasel phrase "it became apparent" is slightly confusing here. If they were subject to it, then just say "Early in January, the club was subject to a new winding-up petition issued by HMRC", or "the club found out it was subject"

Changed

That's my lot. - SchroCat (talk) 07:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, these are now addressed. Eric Idle's Cat (talk) 10:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support - SchroCat (talk) 10:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Donkey Kong

Nominator(s): JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:21, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

DK, Donkey Kong, DK, Donkey Kong is here (at FAC!). As the franchise that put Nintendo on the map, Donkey Kong's got one of the most bizarre and entertaining histories of any media franchise—did you know, for instance, that the 1981 original began as a Popeye game? Or that Shigeru Miyamoto, widely regarded as the Spielberg of video games, had never designed a video game before he had to create the big ape to save Nintendo from bankruptcy? Or that the franchise got a musical TV adaptation in the late '90s animated entirely through motion capture?

I've spent almost two years working on this article, from February 2023 until now. I think it paints a complete picture of the franchise's history, inner workings, and influence. I hope you enjoy reading the article as much as I enjoyed writing it! JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:21, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

FM

• Probably won't get to it soon, but marking my spot, because I have to read this! And I sure know the TV series, because it turns out I'm apparently one of the only people who recorded the Danish dub, which is commercially unavailable now... FunkMonk (talk) 13:54, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
• At first glance I'm seeing a bunch of WP:duplinks, which can be highlighted with this script:[15]
  • I believe I've nuked all of 'em JOEBRO⁶⁴ 19:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

• "and the success of Taito's Space Invaders (1978)" While most readers would know, could add "Taito's video game Space Invaders".
  • I added "arcade game" JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• " The $280 million windfall" I had no idea what this meant, could add "gain" to the term, as in the linked article, so it's easier to deduct.
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• "Four programmers from Ikegami Tsushinki spent three months turning them into a finished game." A bit unclear what "them" refers to, as the preceding sentence is very long.
  • changed to "Miyamoto's design". This was the result of some sentences being shifted around due to me adding more info during the GA review JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• "had won a lawsuit years prior" Perhaps more interesting and informative (and less wordy) to just give the date?
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• "Popeye became Mario" Perhaps worth stating in a footnote it was originally "Jumpman"? Here it makes it seem like if he had the Mario identity from the beginning.
  • This is actually a common misconception—he was always known as Mario, as evidenced by the sales brochure. The "Jumpman" name was only used in the instructions. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• "Donkey Kong's appearances in the years following Donkey Kong 3 were limited to cameos in unrelated games" Worth mentioning them in a footnote, or even in-text.
  • Unfortunately the sources don't elaborate and I wasn't able to find any that did JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• "It begins as a remake of the 1981 game before introducing over 100 puzzle-platforming levels that incorporate elements from Donkey Kong Jr. and Super Mario Bros. 2 (1988)." I think it's worth mentioning that Mario was again the protagonist.
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• "Miyamoto named "Beauty and the Beast" and the 1933 film King Kong as influences" Perhaps clarify "named the fairytale "Beauty and the Beast"", so readers don't assume the film.
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• "but the sprite was too big to easily maneuver" Perhaps add "the sprite graphic" or similar for clarity, as many readers might not understand what's implied.

• "but was moved to the Wii with support for the peripheral dropped" should that be "when support for the peripheral dropped"?
  • I changed it to "moved to the Wii with no support for the peripheral"—the Wii does support the DK Bongos but for whatever reason Paon decided not to let you use them. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• "as closer in spirit to his work on Banjo-Kazooie than Wise's Country music" Maybe "than to Wise's Country music" for clarity?
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• "before it shifted to producing and importing anime" What is meant by "importing"?

• "A Donkey Kong cartoon produced by Ruby-Spears aired as part of CBS's hour-long Saturday Supercade programming block in 1983" You give the number of episodes for the other series mentioned, why not for this one?
  • So it's two things. (1) It's not in the sources. (2) A lot of Saturday Supercade is considered lost media because rebroadcasts and rereleases are very rare and much of it was never recorded, I think it's possible that there were more episodes beyond the 13 ones listed at the Saturday Supercade article so that number could be inaccurate. Best to omit it if we don't have the sourcing. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• Eveline Novakovic's lastname was Fischer at the relevant period, would it make more sense to use the name she was credited as back then?
  • Done. (I think the only DK games she worked on under the name Novakovic were the GBA ones.) JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• The intro says "The franchise has pioneered or popularized concepts such as in-game storytelling" while the legacy section mentions "The franchise's lack of storytelling". Seems contradictory? I'm also not seeing the former explained in the article body.
  • It's discussed in the legacy section, under effect on the industry. The "lack of storytelling" was referring to the fact the franchise doesn't have a super deep official backstory so I've clarified that. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• "Some games without the Country branding" feels a bit convoluted, why not just "outside the Country series"?
  • I just removed it outright as it wasn't necessary. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• You provide a long list of characters in the Country section under gameplay, perhaps worth mentioning the new player characters in the DK 64 part?

• "Other villains include" Could specify that these are all post-Rare?
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• "A model of an original Donkey Kong (1981) arcade cabinet" Why use a miniature model? While perhaps not as nice an image, I think it would be more authentic to show an actual machine, like this free image:[16]

• Changes look good, I see four unaddressed points. FunkMonk (talk) 23:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah I'll be coming back to those shortly. I've been busy with school and work so my wiki-time's been a bit limited. I should have everything from everyone addressed by the weekend. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 14:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Fathoms Below

Hey Joe, it's been a while right? This is a big step up from DKC so I'll save a spot here and I should have some comments up by next week. I also have a FAC open and would really appreciate some quick comments if you're available. Fathoms Below (talk) 15:45, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Update: working on comments right now! Fathoms Below (talk) 19:41, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments by David Fuchs

I'll have a proper run-through later, but some driveby thoughts for now:

• For the purposes of the lead, how important is it to list all of the supporting characters? I ask partially because the "Rare's games expanded the cast" sentence is trying to pack a lot of information in, is a bit confusing (when you get to the end and we're talking about antagonists instead) and hits you with a ton of names that most people are not necessarily going to know anyhow.
  • How's it now? I chopped it down to only the characters who have articles (e.g. Mario and Pauline). I think "friendly Kongs" should suffice for the supporting characters; I kept mention of the Kremlings since they're the only recurring antagonists. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 19:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
• In both the lead and body, the text says "to provide a new game that could salvage the unsold Radar Scope cabinets", and I'm wondering if "salvage" makes sense here? They were taking the cabinets and putting a new game into them, correct, versus scrapping them for parts or the like, so "repurpose" maybe makes more sense?
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 19:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
    • (edit conflict) I said the same thing here. You have disgraced the Kongs by not staying true. Panini! • 🥪 19:10, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
      • lol, since more than one person has now taken issue with it I determined it was best to change JOEBRO⁶⁴ 19:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
• I get trying to show the variety of games with File:Donkey Kong Country Gameplay Elements.png, but from a practical standpoint, especially given that the core formula is unchanged between them in terms of platforming and with the limitations of non-free content, I think it would make sense to use a single, higher-resolution screenshot.
  • Looking for a decent screenshot right now, will update this when I get one JOEBRO⁶⁴ 19:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 17:16, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Vacant0

Nice to see this at FAC. I'll review it during this week. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 15:22, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• What does make Ref 214 (Madison) reliable?
• Other than that, I did not spot any issues with reliability of sources. Some sources are situational but do not have any issues upon checking them. I don't think that I'd have enough time to do a proper source spotcheck though.

The article is quite long, so I'll only take a look at the lede and some parts of the body in detail and draw up my conclusion from it.

• I did not spot any major issues in the lede. It reads to me quite well and covers important aspects of the franchise. Same goes for "1981–1982: Conception and first game" , 1995–2002: Franchise expansion", and "Original series".
• "IGN said that Donkey Kong Country's soundtrack contributed to an increased appreciation for video game music as an art form, and musicians such as Trent Reznor and Donald Glover have praised it." → "IGN said that Donkey Kong Country's soundtrack contributed to an increased appreciation for video game music as an art form; musicians such as Trent Reznor and Donald Glover have praised the soundtrack".
• I did not spot any major issues in the Cultural impact section too.

This looks like a short review, but I really do not have any complaints for the prose I've read. It reads okay to me and some aspects are explained in detail, which is also good especially for readers with little knowledge about the franchise (e.g. in 1995–2002: Franchise expansion). Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 16:04, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Comment from Panini!

I reviewed the GAN and I can't remember if there's a rule withholding me from reviewing and supporting here. But regardless, just wanted to say thank you! For swapping around those gameplay images! Those are definitely some excellent choices, considering that most of the games are dark jungles and finding good ones can be tricky. The second one does have a dark background, but the lack of intractable gameplay elements on top of that besides the barrels, which are the object of discussion, keep the image clear for demonstration. Panini! • 🥪 22:39, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

No rule. Reviews from editors already closely familiar with the article are welcome. Disclosing this is helpful mind. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Bowser

Looks good and I enjoyed the read. Here's a few ideas:

• Rare began working on Donkey Kong 64, the first Donkey Kong game to feature 3D gameplay - since Diddy Kong Racing has been introduced, should we call this a "regular" Donkey kong game? Also, should we mention the N64 expansion pack?
  • changed to "first 3D DK platform game". I'm not sure about mentioning the Expansion Pak because I don't think it's really important to the franchise as a whole. It's definitely a neat tidbit about the game itself but this article's more about the grand scheme of things so I don't think it's necessary. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• In April 2023, Rogen said he saw "a lot of opportunity" in the prospect. Eurogamer wrote that Diddy and Dixie's brief cameo in The Super Mario Bros. Movie was obvious setup for a Donkey Kong film. - I think these sentences could be struck.
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• though Playtonic declined to label it a spiritual successor. - same
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• and journalists have described him as a mascot for both Nintendo and the video game industry. - could we just state this without attibution, as in "he has been described"?
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• to which Wise expressed approval. - it's been a while since he was last mentioned, full name?
  • Done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• Nintendo Life described one fansite, DK Vine, as "highly respected". - not sure about this one, feels a bit odd "reviewing" the fandom.
  • I think this should stay. Discussion of fandom is definitely noteworthy cultural impact and DK Vine is the most well-known DK fansite, having broken a few stories that ended up making the mainstream press (notably the canceled Vicarious Visions game, for which they were cited in Eurogamer and VGC) JOEBRO⁶⁴ 15:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I also think the storytelling contradiction needs to be straightened out. Once that's done I plan to support this nom. Regards. Draken Bowser (talk) 21:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Rjjiii

I'll add notes as I read through this week:

• With regards to Popeye, the very next arcade game that Miyamoto does for Nintendo is the licensed Popeye game. Is there any connection here? For example, was code reused, do the cabinets share hardware, or did Donkey Kong play any role in Nintendo getting the Popeye rights?
  • My understanding of the situation is that Nintendo's inability to secure the Popeye license for what would become Donkey Kong was due to negotiations taking too long. I'm doing some research to see if there's any relation between the two games. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:35, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• "Miyamoto named the fairy tale" I found the verb/phrasing confusing.
  • Changed to "cited" JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:35, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• "He placed an emphasis on jumping to avoid obstacles and cross gaps. Miyamoto's ideas were uncommon in contemporary arcade games," This also confuses me. Note "a" reads like this game introduced the mechanic, not that it was uncommon.
• "was told it would be a failure," Does the source say who told them this?
  • No JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:35, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• "Game & Watch version" Would "adaptation" be more accurate than "version" here?
  • yeah, done JOEBRO⁶⁴ 16:35, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• "The victory helped cement Nintendo as a major force in the video game industry." I would cut this per WP:IMPARTIAL. If the sentence is making an objective statement about the court case, it's going over my head with the current wording.
• "Nintendo wanted a game to compete with Sega's Aladdin (1993), which featured graphics by Disney animators,[34][35] when Lincoln learned of Rare's SGI experiments during a trip to Europe." This sentence is hard to parse. Is Lincoln the company's lawyer? "when" seems an odd way to connect these thoughts.
• The Mortal Kombat influence is unclear to me. Were they not already planning to do pre-rendered graphics with the SGI workstations they had bought?
• How common was the usage of these high-end SGI workstations to do video game graphics? Beyond being "groundbreaking" was anyone else in the UK or in the industry doing this?
• "and the designers could not replicate the detail of Country's pre-rendering with real-time graphics" I think this could be slightly expanded so that a less-technical reader could better understand it.
• "to create a new experience" I'd consider removing or rephrasing this. In some sense, any new media is a new experience.
• "but it sold poorly in comparison to Returns" Is this due to the smaller market for Wii U games?
• "was working on a Switch Donkey Kong game" Do we know if they still are?
• That's it for "History", Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Metaphysics

Nominator(s): Phlsph7 (talk) 12:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that examines the basic structure of reality. Some of its main topics include the categories of being, the concepts of possibility and necessity, the nature of spacetime, and the relation between mind and matter. It is relevant to many fields, ranging from other branches of philosophy to the sciences, which often implicitly rely on metaphysical concepts and ideas. Thanks to 750h+ for their GA review and to Patrick Welsh for their peer review! Phlsph7 (talk) 12:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Generalissima's comments

Mark me down for a prose review here. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:21, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Shapeyness

Another amazing article on a core topic in philosophy! Here are some initial comments from my first read through Shapeyness (talk) 15:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello Shapeyness, it has been a while. Thanks for reviewing the article! Phlsph7 (talk) 17:08, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• It is sometimes characterized as first philosophy to suggest that it is more fundamental than other forms of philosophical inquiry. It is probably best to attribute this idea, e.g. "Some philosophers, including Aristotle, designate metaphysics as first philosophy to suggest that it is more fundamental than other forms of philosophical inquiry."

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:08, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• Universals are general repeatable entities that characterize particulars, like the color red. Would suggest simplifying or rewording this sentence a bit for the general reader

  Done. It's probably still not ideal but I hope it's better now. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:08, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah that's better! :) Shapeyness (talk) 20:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• metaphysics was once declared meaningless, and then revived with various criticisms of earlier theories and new approaches to metaphysical inquiry. imo this is a bit vague and awkwardly worded

  Done. The new version is hopefull less awkwardly worded but I'm not sure I can do much about the vagueness without making it longer. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:08, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think that's clear enough now, don't need to make it any longer. Shapeyness (talk) 20:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Phillips 1967 and Haack 1979 are relatively old sources to be using for the sentence about Strawson

  I found a newer source to replace them. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks! Should the MacDonald source be citing page 18 instead? Shapeyness (talk) 20:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, page 18 supports our text more directly. I changed it. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:21, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Veldsman 2017 and Heidegger 1996 - are these appropriate for the etymology section? On that note, the sources for "Metaphysics got its name by a historical accident" could maybe be better, I would expect them to be from historians/historians of philosophy focusing on Aristotle or etymologists, but maybe I'm missing something?

  I removed Veldsman 2017 and Heidegger 1996 since the paragraph is already well-covered by the remaining sources. I found a source on the history of metaphysics for the part about the historical accident. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

  Do you have the quote you are using from that source? Shapeyness (talk) 20:34, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  From Hamlyn 2005, p. 590: The term ‘metaphysics’ originated, however, as a title given to some of Aristotle’s works in the catalogue of the edition of them produced by Andronicus of Rhodes in the second half of the first century bc (although it may have come from an earlier library classification). It meant simply the works which followed those on physics in the catalogue. But those works, which were concerned with being, both as such and in respect of various categories of it, especially substance, contain discussions concerning matters which have an obvious continuity with later metaphysical theories. Hence it is reasonable to see Aristotle’s Metaphysics, untidy though it is in the form in which it has come down to us, as the first systematic treatise in metaphysics... Phlsph7 (talk) 09:21, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Ok I was wondering if it used the term historical accident. It doesn't use that phrase but paints the same picture as the other sources. Potentially could attribute "historical accident" phrasing but I'm not sure if that is necessary or not. Shapeyness (talk) 20:16, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I weakened the claim about the historical accident. The exact term "historical accident" is found in the other sources. This became an issue during the DYK nomination since one of the suggested hooks used that expression. See Talk:Metaphysics#Did_you_know_nomination for the discussion and more quotes. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:57, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Metaphysicians often regard existence or being as one of the most basic and general concepts Very minor one but Gibson 1998 and Vallicella 2010 are slightly weaker inclusions in the citation here imo

  I removed them since the other references should be sufficient. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• exist outside space and time This is often used to get the idea across, but really "outside" is an inappropriate concept to use here as it is a spatial concept. The sentence is also quite long, although I didn't have any issue parsing it.

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:59, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• The part on the problem of the many could do with some rewording so it's as clear as possible for the general reader

  Reformulated. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:15, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  For instance, it raises the issue of whether a dust particle on a tabletop is part of the table. I think this could still do with some motivating, or the reader might just think "why would anyone think a dust particle is a part of the table?" I've not read the cited sources and whether they use particular examples, but could be worded in terms of atoms maybe, not sure what the best way to do it simply is. Shapeyness (talk) 20:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  I used a different example about a coffee cup and a printer. Another common example focuses on the boundary of a cloud and whether a cloud is one or many. We could also use something else if you have a different idea. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• They belong to modal metaphysics, which investigates the metaphysical principles underlying them This is a bit weirdly worded

  Reformulated. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:15, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• A possible world is a complete and consistent way of how things could have been This is also a bit weirdly worded

  Reformulated. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:15, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  I read through the sources and I think the wording I'm finding strange is "a way of how", but I guess this is an attempt to avoid close paraphrasing? I would word it A possible world is a complete and consistent way things could have been. I don't think "way things could have been" being a shared wording with some of the sources should be a problem per WP:LIMITED and the fact that a few different sources all seem to use the same wording as a kind of standard definition. Shapeyness (talk) 21:06, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  A possible world is a complete and consistent way the totality of things could have been might also work. Shapeyness (talk) 21:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  I used your second suggestion. I agree that for the short definition itself, WP:CLOSEPARAPHRASE shouldn't be a problem. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• McLaughlin 1999 - should this have a chapter/entry?

  Added. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:15, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• Züricher 2021 - is this a high quality source for metaphysics, it seems to be a psychotherapy handbook

  Replaced. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:15, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• Imaguire 2018 - this is a bit more specific compared to the other sources in this citation, I think it isn't needed

  Removed. Phlsph7 (talk) 14:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• For example, the statement "a tomato is red" is true because there exists a red tomato as its truthmaker - as far as I'm aware, truthmakers are generally not identified with ordinary objects like tomatoes, they are usually identified with facts, states of affairs or tropes. Slightly nitpicky but also quite important to the debate I think (I can provide sources if useful).

  I think you got a point that various truthmaker theories focus on facts. I tried to reformulate it in a way that leaves either option open so both thing ontologists and fact ontologists can read it the way they want. Phlsph7 (talk) 14:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  Doesn't this still say that the red tomato is the truthmaker? A truthmaker of a statement is the entity whose existence makes the statement true. For example, the statement "a tomato is red" is true because of the existence of a red tomato as its truthmaker. The problem with the tomato being the truthmaker is that there is a possible world where the tomato is not red, so the tomato doesn't necessitate the truth of the statement. My understanding is that truthmaker theorists will generally say that the truthmaker is "the tomato's being red" or "the redness of the tomato" or "the fact that the tomato is red". Shapeyness (talk) 19:14, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  Well, the expression "a red tomato" refers to a particular. The question is probably whether the expression "the existence of a red tomato" can refer to a fact.

  The issue of necessitation most likely also depends on how we interpret the expression. Interpreted in a simple manner, a red tomato can't be blue at the same time, so we would be on the safe side. However, if "a red tomato" means "a tomato that is red in the actual world" then the tomato could have a different color in another world.

  Our source, Tallant 2017 p. 1–2 (chapter 1. An introduction to truth-making), says: that ‘a tomato is red’ is true is due to there existing a red tomato. ... when we say that ‘ “the tomato is red” is true,’ we say this because there exists a red tomato.

  Some alternative formulations:

  • For example, the existence of a red tomato or the tomato's being red acts as a truthmaker for the statement "a tomato is red".

    This version covers several variations.

  • For example, the statement "a tomato is red" is true because of the fact that a tomato is red as its truthmaker.

    This version focuses on facts. It might sound too tautological to some readers.

  I'm also open to other suggestions. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

  How about For example, the fact that a tomato exists and that it is red acts as a truthmaker for the statement "a tomato is red"? It mirrors the kind of language the Tallant source uses for other claims (except I explicitly added the word "fact"). I think maybe there isn't a perfect way to reflect the nuance here in a way that will be picked up on by the someone who doesn't know anything about the topic without being overlong. Fwiw I'm drawing from thoughts similar to those in these overviews:

  • Take an alleged contingent truth about a certain rose, say that <The rose is red>. Clearly, the rose itself cannot be the truthmaker for this proposition, since given that it is contingent that it is red, it is possible for the rose to be another colour. But if it is possible for the rose to be another colour, then the rose itself does not necessitate the truth of <The rose is red> and so it is not its truthmaker. (Rodriguez-Pereyra 2006)
  • The existence of such an object is not sufficient to satisfy [the truthmaker principle], however. The existence of something which happens to satisfy ‘x is a rose and x is red’ does not entail the truth of 〈The rose is red〉, since the object in question—a rose, which, as it happens, is red—might not have been red, and so there are possible worlds where that object exists yet 〈The rose is red〉 is false. (Beebee & Dodd 2005)

  —Shapeyness (talk) 19:10, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

  Sounds good. I implemented the suggestion and added these two sources. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:47, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• Ryckman 2005 - why is a book on philosophy of physics being used as a source on phenomenalism

  Replaced. Phlsph7 (talk) 14:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• The transcendental method is... do we need the sources other than Stern & Cheng 2023?

  I also kept Pihlström 2009 since it has a section explicitly dedicated to the transcendental method but I removed the others. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:30, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• I don't think we should label Hume a skeptic in Wikipedia's voice when that is a matter of controversy. According to the most recent philpapers survey only 37% of philosophers label Hume a skeptic vs 55% that call him a naturalist (when you filter by those specialising in 17th/18th century philosophy, that goes up to 63%)

  I think it uncontroversial that Hume has a skeptical outlook about metaphysical knowledge but I changed the term to "critical outlook" to avoid problems. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:30, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  I was thinking more about the discussion in the criticism section but I guess you're right that there's a difference between being skeptical of metaphysics and being a skeptic full stop. Do the sources generally phrase it using the term skepticism? If so then there's probably no problem. I don't have access to all of the sources used for those sentences. Shapeyness (talk) 19:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  From Rea 2021, pp. 210–211: A priori theorizing about the world ... has long been viewed with skepticism ... One of the most well-known expressions of this sort of negative attitude toward metaphysics comes from David Hume

  From Koons & Pickavance 2015, p. 4: A number of significant thinkers began to sound a new note in the late eighteenth century, raising doubts about the right of metaphysics to stand as a science among other fields of knowledge. David Hume, the great philosopher of Scotland, stands out as pre-eminent among these new antimetaphysicians.

  I can look for more, but I think they should be sufficient for the way it is currently worded. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:57, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• New scientific discoveries have also influenced existing and inspired new metaphysical theories I think this should be something like "New scientific discoveries have also influenced existing metaphysical theories and inspired new ones."

  Changed. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:30, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• History - do you think there is room for a sentence on Locke to fill out the major empiricist philosophers

  I found a way to mention him in relation to Hume. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:30, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• At the turn of the 20th century in analytic philosophy, philosophers such as Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) and G. E. Moore (1873–1958) led a "revolt against idealism" Maybe this can be explained slightly (e.g. why? how?), obviously we don't want lots of detail

  Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 17:30, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Hurra-yi Khuttali

Nominator(s): Amir Ghandi (talk) 11:54, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I am renominating this article after it failed the first nomination only because of a lack of engagement from reviewers. This article is about a minor figure in the history of the Ghaznavid dynasty, the dynasty that ruled what is modern day Afghanistan and eastern Iran. Hurra-yi Khuttali was a princess from this dynasty and is regarded as the most politically active woman of her era because she interfered in the succession of her brother. Small details are known about her life, therefore the article itself is quite short. Amir Ghandi (talk) 11:54, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

ThaesOfereode

Hi Amir, it looks like you have Arabic transliterations in the {{Lang}} template. Unless the Arabic script is used, you should use {{translit}} instead. Other issues below:

• "free woman" → 'free woman' per MOS:SINGLE (also want single quotes around "agnomen").
  • Done
• Deitalicize established loan words like "amir", "harem", and "sultan". All of these are common enough terms in English that they don't need italics.
  • Done
• First instance of amir should be delinked to avoid a WP:SEAOFBLUE violation (i.e., before Mas'ud of Ghazna)
  • Done
• Any reason you picked the spelling "Seljuq" over the more common "Seljuk"?
  • Force of habit; changed it to Seljuk

More to follow later. ThaesOfereode (talk) 12:33, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Hello, @ThaesOfereode, would you be interested to continue this review? Amir Ghandi (talk) 14:23, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Amir. Yes, my personal life has become a little busy, but I should be able to get to this over the coming days. If I don't get to this by Wednesday, ping me again. In the meantime, it looks like your use of the {{lang}} template should be changed to the {{translit}} whenever the Arabic script is not used; as I understand, it will render oddly for screen readers. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay; changed the templates. Amir Ghandi (talk) 17:55, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@ThaesOfereode Reminder. Amir Ghandi (talk) 13:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, some thoughts:

• You shouldn't replace hamzas/ayins with apostrophes; in names like Masʽud, it looks like you may have thought they should be straightened in accordance with MOS:CQ, but they should not be. Looks like the pipes can be easily removed. In other cases, the templates {{hamza}} and {{ayin}} can be added as appropriate for Arabic names.

• Fixed Mas'ud's name.

• In footnote C, "Khatun" should be placed in a {{translit}} template. I'll let you decide whether it should be Farsi or something else.

• Done

• Consider a hatnote that says that the subject should be referred to as "Hurra" not "Hurra-yi" (my first guess) and that "Khuttali" should not be used as a surname. Thomas Aquinas's page has something similar for reference.

• Added

• For that matter, the name section should probably tell the reader what "-yi" means. Feminine suffix? Construct state?

• I don't have the source to add that unfortunately

• Consider linking theology.

• Done

• which Ma'mun conceded to → to which Ma'mun conceded is more natural

• Done

• What is a "patriotic" rebellion? Aren't they all from the POV of the rebels? Unless there is compelling reason to keep it, I think the use of "patriotic" here should be removed.

• Deleted it

• Mahmud wished to retaliate the killing → Mahmud sought retribution for the killing is less awkward. (And remove the comma after "brother-in-law").

• Done

• Link concubines.

• Done

• "along with her younger brother"

• Done

• What Turkic military commanders? This alliance is not established for the reader. Did the Ghaznavids ally themselves with other Turkic tribes? Which? When? Why? Why did these leaders find themselves scheming (?) in the Ghaznavid court?

• I meant the commanders of Ghaznavid military who happened to be Turkic. Deleted it for clarity

• What was Masʽud "preoccupied" with in the west? Where in the west? Baghdad? Rome? Lisbon? Also, probably don't need the parentheses here.

• Added and deleted the parentheses

• In footnote E, {{translit}} for "vali ahd" should be Persian rather than Arabic, right? Is "b." short for "bin"? Not sure I understand the parenthetical about the passive voice; there are only two passive sentences. In any case, the parentheses can be dropped; they're not really doing anything.

• Added translit for vali ahd; changed b. to ibn. The passive voice is more present when you read the text in Farsi. I deleted the whole sentence for clarity.

• Mas'ud lacked political shrewdness, therefore, Hurra is suspected to have influenced [...] → Mas'ud lacked political shrewdness; Hurra is suspected to have influenced [...]

• Done

• Any reason footnote G is a footnote? Seems pertinent enough to Hurra's decision-making to include it in the prose. If so, recommend linking oases.

• Brought to the body

• No need for a comma after conquests in India. Delink India in favor of linking conquests in India with Ghaznavid campaigns in India unless I missed this link being made prior.

• Done

• WP:SEAOFBLUE violation with Oghuz Turkoman should be corrected.

• Deleted Oghuz

• Link caravans as appropriate (perhaps Camel train or Caravan (travellers)?)

• Done

• Why did you pipe Seljuk dynasty to Seljuk when dynasty is the very next word?

• Amended

• Comma after his other aunts.

• Done

• Footnote H should be prose.

• Can you explain what you mean? I'm not sure I understand

• Might link India in the sentence following what is currently footnote H, provided you delinked it as per my previous comment.

• Done

• Remove comma after 1041.

• Done

• realis mood – Okay, so this is more of a category of moods rather than one mood. If you mean the indicative mood, this sentence doesn't make much sense. If you mean another (energetic mood?), it should be specified.
• contemporary historian – Can this just be historian or at least historian of [insert specific title of period studied]? My first thought upon reading was that Amirsoleimani was a contemporary of Hurra.

• Changed to modern historian

Good page all around, but there are some issues. Let me know what you think. Tremendously interesting topic. Looking forward to seeing more "women in bronze". ThaesOfereode (talk) 18:06, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Airship

As always, the following are suggestions, not demands:

• "considered the most prominent woman in Ghaznavid politics" this is not quite what the body says—that an action she took was the most prominent by a woman in Ghaznavid politics.
  • Changed it
• Not sure if "in modern Afghanistan" needs to be in the lead.
  • Deleted
• Two consecutive sentences starting "she was" could be combined.
  • Done
• "a direct cause for" "a direct cause of" sounds more natural.
  • Done
• "who was deemed unfit" this omits that she was one who deemed Muhammad unfit.
  • Deleted
• " Her letter was one of the main reasons for Mas'ud's usurpation of the throne." a bit vague, you could go into more detail about what actually happened.
  • Done
• "the Ghaznavid dynasty, who were a dynasty of Turkic origin" could be simplified to something like "the Ghaznavids, a dynasty of Turkic origin..."
  • Done
• "she sought to learn sciences" this is slightly ungrammatical, probably needing a "the", and also a little unclear—which sciences?
  • This was originally 'other sciences' beside theology, but one reviewer commented that theology is not a science, so I omited the 'other'. I'll add 'other' again since the source itself considers theology a science.
• The map provided is not that useful—a better one would show the Ghaznavid territories, which are referred to more often, instead of intricate details of Khwarazm. File:Ghaznavid Empire (map).jpg seems ideal, if you can find a source that verifies it.
  • Done
• "The latter" is unnecessary—it wouldn't be the person who's died, would it?
  • Replaced with 'He'.
• "patriotist" is not a word, is "patriotic" meant? If yes, I suggest "nationalist" instead as more suitable.
  • I myself prefer 'patriotic' since the source uses it
• "the rebels killed Ma'mun because of his submission" if the whole rebellion broke out because of the submission, I would suggest mentioning that at the start of the sentence, not the end.
  • I reworded the sentence. Thoughts?
• You could mention that Muhammad and his brother were twins.
  • Done
• "inviting him" is a bit oddly phrased, would suggest "encouraging him" or similar.
  • Done
• "Mas'ud marched east to claim the throne, and continued to receive letters from Hurra and his mother regarding the situation in Ghazna. On his arrival in 1030 in Ghazna, Mas'ud captured Muhammad and took the throne." these sentences are quite clunky; try to trim to reduce duplication.
  • Done
• "who had assumed total power in Ghazna after Muhammad's ascension to become the real power behind Muhammad's government" this also essentially says the same thing twice.
  • Amended
• The last paragraph of the "Biography" section needs a thorough copyedit—it really lacks clarity.
  • Done
• Too many commas in the last sentence of "Assessments".
  • Amended

~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:25, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

FunkMonk

• Support - I seem to be the only one to have completed a review last time around, so here is my support again. FunkMonk (talk) 16:24, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

HF

• "Abu al-Hasan died at an uncertain date between 1006 to 1010 and was succeeded by his brother, Ma'mun II." - If I'm reading the source correctly, the source says The date of ʿAlī’s death and the accession of his brother Abu’l-ʿAbbās Maʾmūn II is not definitely known, but must have been ca. 399/1008-9
• "He, with the same intent as his brother, married Hurra in 1015" - source says 1015/1016 which doesn't seem to be quite the same as what's in the article?
  • When I was writing the article, I based the dated on the dates in the Encyclopaedia of the World of Islam article, which uses the Hijri calendar. I had to use an app that converts the dates, that is why the year is specified. For example, in the article the year of Hurra's second marriage is recorded as 406 AH, which in turn could be converted to 1015. I'll correct the date now.
• "a dynasty of Turkic origin whose realm included modern day Afghanistan, eastern Iran and northwestern India" - source specifies Baluchistan, rather than "eastern Iran"; is this really the best way to phrase this, as from what I can tell eastern Iran is more expansive than Baluchistan?
  • From the source: "GHAZNAVIDS, an Islamic dynasty of Turkish slave origin (366-582/977-1186), which in its heyday ruled in the eastern Iranian lands, briefly as far west as Ray and Jebāl; for a while in certain regions north of the Oxus, most notably, in Kᵛārazm; and in Baluchistan." The source doesn't single out Baluchistan, it is mentioned with other regions.

I was going to check Bosworth 1963 as well, but the Internet Archive is acting up again today. I'm a bit concerned about source-text after some issues came up at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sabuktigin/archive1. Hog Farm _Talk 02:32, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Edwininlondon

Just a few drive-by comments from a complete lay person:

• would be nice if the opening sentence would mention which modern-day part of the world we're talking about
• ruler of Ghazna --> links to the city of Ghazni, or should it perhaps go to Ghazni Province?
  • I believe I've already linked Ghazna both in the lead and in the body
• She used two nisbas --> perhaps help the reader out a bit by explaining what directly in the textthat is, rather than forcing them to click through or guess that footnote c explains it
  • Done
• recorded by Shabankara'i --> add a description, just like British orientalist Clifford Edmund Bosworth
  • Done
• by Abu'l-Fadl Bayhaqi (d. 1077) a secretary --> comma missing
  • Done
• Amir Mas'ud of Ghazna --> 1) should Amir be linked? is it a title like emir? 2) am I right that this is the newphew? Better to say so, plus when the nephew is introduced I would refer to him by his full name and title
  • 1) to prevent WP:SEAOFBLUE, no, and yes it is the Persianized version of emir. 2) Yes, done
• since the Ma'amunids --> is there a stray "a" here, given that it is the Ma'munid dynasty?
  • Indeed, amended
• However, he was killed --> he is a bit ambiguous (and the subsequent his)
  • Mentioned the name
• Hurra, along with her younger brother, Yusuf ibn Sabuktigin --> is that the name of her brother or a different person? do we need some commas here?
  • Moved the comma to the end
• the Sultan --> the sultan (if I interpret MOS:JOBTITLE correctly)
  • Done
• the Seljuks --> who are they? what happened to the Turkomans?
  • My mistake, the Seljuks are a Turkoman dynasty that lead the other Turkomans. I replaced 'Seljuk tribes' with 'Seljuk dynasty.'
• footnote h: why not put this in the main text?
  • Its a hinderance to the flow of the text
• she is metaphorically covering their shame --> I would add attribution here
  • Done
• as it was Bayhaqi's intentions --> singular or plural? and did Bayyhaqi state this intention or is this an interpretation by Amirsoleimani?
  • Reworded the sentence
• Iranian historian, Shirin Bayani --> no comma here
  • Done
• The Boswell sources in ibliography should be order by time, not randomly
  • Done

That's all I have. Edwininlondon (talk) 09:06, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Borsoka

• It was most likely... Could you attribute this PoV to a scholar (and ideally explain it a bit)?
  • That makes two 'according to's in one paragraph. I don't think that's pleasing to read. Also, could not find anything to expand on that
• ...an honorific laqab 'agnomen'... I think the three non-cotidian terms are unneccessary; furthermore, the term "agnomen" is possibly misleading. Why not "a laqab (honorific)" with links? If you think all three terms are to be mentioned, the last term ("agnomen") should be enclosed in brackets.
  • Done
• ... and not her actual name Is this necessary? If not, delete it. If yes, could you add a link (because for me the laqab is also an "actual" name used in souces)?
  • Deleted
• Do we know what is the origin of her second nisba (Kaliji)? If we do not know it, we should make it clear.
  • No, and wouldn't that be an unsourced edition? None of the sources even mention that the origin of Kaliji is unknown.
• An explanation for khatun?
  • Done
• Could you expand the first section's second paragraph to avoid a one-sentence paragraph? For instance, it could be stated in a separate sentence that the only source contains only sparse references, and we could also be informed that it is reliable or unreliable. Based on section "Assessments and historiography", I understand one of her letters has also been preserved in a manuscript - is it the same source?
• Mention the period of reign of Mas'ud (as it is mentioned in the first sentence of the following section in connection with her father).
  • Done
• ...is a probable candidate Could you attribute this PoV to a scholar (and ideally explain it a bit)?
  • Done for the attribution, sadly can't expand it further
• This marriage would have secured an alliance... Why future-in-the-past?
• Hurra may have been taken hostage by them. Could you attribute this PoV to a scholar (and ideally explain it a bit)? Please also read my comment below.
• Hurra may have been taken hostage by them. Mahmud threatened the rebels with invasion unless they released Hurra. Contradiction? (The first sentence implies that she may have not been taken hostage, but the second sentence says that she had been seized.) Perhaps the two sentences could be rephrased to contain only facts ("Hurra was seized/imprisoned/prevented from returning to her homeland/...).
• ...after Mahmud's death, she was entrusted with the care of his wives... Why not widows?
  • Changed to widows
• ...who was crowned in Ghazna... Could you quote the text from the cited source verifying this statement?
  • Bosworth: "...Muhammad succeeded in Ghazna according to his father's will"
    • His coronation is not verified. I am not sure that Ghaznavids were indeed crowned.
      • Okay I'll delete it then
• ..., which was dependent on the powerful leadership of the sultan Could you quote the text from the cited source verifying this statement?
  • Bosworth: "...Ghaznavid empire was basically dependent on the military leadership and executive talent of its Sultan"
• ...encouraging him to take the throne while she and the other women of the court were confided in the Citadel of Ghazni I do not understand the relevance of the part beginning with "while she...".
  • Deleted
• He also imprisoned Ali b. Il-Arsalan Qarib, the al-hajib al-kabir (commander-in-chief) of the army, who had become the real power behind Muhammad's government. Is this relevant in the article's context? I would delete it.
  • Deleted
• ...Hurra is suspected to have influenced By whom?
• The region of Khorasan housed rich oases, centres of industry and crafts and important trade routes. Therefore it was an integral part of the empire. Therefore?
  • Deleted
• File:Ghaznavid Empire (map).jpg: 1. Explain that Mahmud was her brother in the caption (as you introduce similarly Mas'ud I in the other picture's caption). 2. What is the source of the map?
  • 1) done 2) map is compliant with the Cambridge History of Iran map of the Ghaznavids

Borsoka (talk) 11:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• • • I added the source to the file. Excellent article, so I support its promotion. Thank you for your work. Borsoka (talk) 07:54, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Overdrawn at the Memory Bank

Nominator(s): GamerPro64 23:55, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Decided to try getting another movie shown on Mystery Science Theater 3000 to Featured Article status. This time around its Overdrawn at the Memory Bank, a major for public television movie starring the late great Raul Julia. A very bizarre science fiction film that tries its best to be profound but ends up being pretty confusing at times. Still a fun movie to watch and I believe that the article meets FAC criteria. Always looking forward for critiques, however. GamerPro64 23:55, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments

• "It premiered on the CBC" - might be worth clarifying that this is a Canadian station. I for one didn't know this and just assumed it was American.
  • I unabbreviated it. GamerPro64 00:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
    • Can you unabbreviate it in the body too......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:24, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
      • I have also been looking at a few related articles and think maybe it would be more appropriate to say it was broadcast on CBC Television...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
        • Changed it to that. GamerPro64 20:08, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• "working for conglomerate Novicorp" => "working for the conglomerate Novicorp"
  • Added. GamerPro64 00:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• "assigns him mandatory prophylactic rehabilitation" - is there an appropriate link for "prophylactic"? I don't know what it means......
  • I wikilinked it. Its basically preventative healthcare. GamerPro64 00:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• "changing both his and Apollonia's identity" => "changing both his and Apollonia's identities"
  • Changed.
• "It was directed Douglas Williams directed the film" - some mangled wording there
  • Looks like it was left behind during the copyedit. Fixed. GamerPro64 00:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• "Paul Chaplin voiced his hatred" - is he also a cast member?
  • Cast member and writer for the show. Clarified. GamerPro64 00:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• "PBS and its pledge drives were also satirized throughout this episode." - source?
  • That does happen in the episode, more satirizing public access stations and their pledge drives. Don't think I can find a proper source beyond the show so I'll remove it. GamerPro64 00:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• "saying the film was ahead of its time and gave praise for the acting" => "saying the film was ahead of its time and giving praise for the acting" -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Changed. GamerPro64 00:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:51, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Support from Crisco 1492

• Apollonia is assigned to locate him - His mind or body?
  • His mind. Clarified. GamerPro64 23:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• I'm seeing a mix of sentence case and title case in the references. Worth reviewing.
  • I don't know what that is. GamerPro64 23:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
    • Ok I was told what you meant and to answer that, I was formatting the titles the same way as they are in their respective publications. GamerPro64 23:38, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
      • WP:CITESTYLE asks for consistency, which is why I flagged it. I'm not doing the source review, so it doesn't affect my response, but it's worth keeping an eye open.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 01:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• The fact that it's based on a short story isn't actually cited in the article. It is citable to this book. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 22:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Added the book for citation. GamerPro64 23:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Otherwise, that's it. This is a nice and tight article. I'm going to look at the Wikipedia Library to see if there is anything production- or theme-related that could be found, but I doubt there will be much critical analysis of an 80s made-for-television film. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 22:04, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• Not much. Orlando Sentinel called it "One of the worst scripts in drive-in history", giving it "one-half star for usin' government money to make it", but the reviewer also mentions a baboon brain transfer, so...
  • I think I stumbled across this before but didn't use it because it was Joe Bob Briggs reviewing it. And I wasn't sure if he was a source to use. GamerPro64 23:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
    • Yeah, that definitely seems to have been in character rather than an actual review. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 01:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• Also Make the Heavens: Virtual Reality in Science Fiction. Uppsala, Sweden: Section for Sociology of Literature at the Department of Literature, Uppsala University, 2010 - Apparently discusses the short story. Might have some more detail.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 22:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• It didn't. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 01:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Support, based on prose, though with the caveat about references that I will leave to whoever does the source review. Looks good! — Chris Woodrich (talk) 01:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Voss (Alexander McQueen collection)

Nominator(s): ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:25, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

It's late 2000. You've had it up to here with the jerks at LVMH telling you how to run Givenchy, with the press making snarky comments about your weight, and with the whole bloody madhouse of the fashion industry top to tail. Do you quit this all and become an accountant now? Hell no. You're Alexander McQueen, and you're going to channel your rage into the most beautiful showcase of your entire career: Voss.

Combining incredible showpieces, virtuoso staging, and – the biggest middle finger of all – beautifully wearable designs, Voss was McQueen at the top of his game, all killer no filler. I hope this article does it justice. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:25, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Alexander McQueen clamshell dress (51611p).jpg - CC-BY-SA 4.0
• File:McQueen, Musée des beaux-arts - 38 (Voss blouse).jpg - CC-BY-SA 4.0
• File:Alexander McQueen clamshell dress (51590).jpg - CC-BY-SA 4.0
• File:Publicité pour Elizabeth Arden 4 by Adolf de Meyer.jpg, PD, including a PD-US tag
• Two good fair-use images with appropriate rationale
• File:McQueen, Musée des beaux-arts - 15 (cropped to jacket).jpg CC-BY-SA 4.0
• File:Platos Atlantis at Savage Beauty.jpg - CC-BY 2.0
• File:ErinOConnor (cropped).jpg GNU FDL / CC-BY-SA 3.0

Everything looks good to me. :) Support. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 23:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

SC

• "beaches on the coast of Norfolk in London": there's quite a gap between London and the beaches of Norfolk – two whole counties worth England lie between them!
• "; some four thousand from the beach alone." It should only be a grammatical full sentence before or after a semi colon, and this isn't one
  • Ooohhh this was a consequence of bad clause swapping. I've revised the whole sentence now to account for the semicolon issue.
• "three seasons prior": "three seasons before" sounds a bit more natural
  • Done

Down to "Models and styling", more later. – SchroCat (talk) 19:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Finishing off:

• "the classic Johannes Vermeer": just "the Johannes Vermeer" would do ("classic" is a bit too peacock-y in this context)
  • Trimmed
• "The look was inspired by The Birds": as you've already mentioned that one of his collections and the film are called this, you may want to clarify which one here
  • Revised
• "Many analysis commented" -> "Many analyses commented"
  • Changed to academics, which is what I think I meant in the first place
• "becoming-indiscernible": is the hyphen there in the original? I'm not sure what it's doing there
  • Oh, it sure is. The whole article is littered with "becoming-this", "becoming-that". Trying to unpack it any further is, uh, challenging.
    • 'becoming-challenging' or just challenging? ;) SchroCat (talk) 17:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
      • Aaaaa wish I'd thought of that
• "of 'becoming' something else'," Is that ' after "else" doing anything or is it a rogue one?
  • Rogue
• "models acting psychotic" -> "models acting psychotically"
  • Done

That's my lot – I hope they're of help. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 11:18, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support. All good from me. - SchroCat (talk) 17:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Source review

I'll pick up the sources once I'm done with the prose. - SchroCat (talk) 19:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• Spot checks not done. Please ping if needed and I'll pick up again.
• Formatting is mostly OK. The only quibbles are around the capitalisation in one or two places:
  • FN1: "Ready to Wear" should be lower case as it's not a formal noun
  • FN44: "spring/summer" should be capitalised (you capitalise the seasons elsewhere)
  • FN72: "Fashion" should be lower case
    • Fixed the other two, but "Radical Fashion" is the name of an exhibition so should be capitalised. I've italicised it though.
      • That's fine then - SchroCat (talk) 17:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• Coverage seems spot on. I've run some additional searches and can't see anything that has been missed out or that is stronger than the extant refs.

Nothing more to add. – SchroCat (talk) 17:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

• Thank you very much for your comments, Schro, I've made fixes. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 16:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

David Fuchs

Forthcoming. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 00:31, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Your Girl

Nominator(s): Heartfox (talk) 19:04, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

This is a short article about a somewhat obscure 2005 song by Mariah Carey. I believe it meets the criteria. Pinging Sammi Brie who kindly reviewed it for GA, if they wish to comment. Thanks to all, Heartfox (talk) 19:04, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

• Any reason why "extended play" is not linked?

  Linked

• "It incorporates the same acoustic guitar ..." I don't get this, the same guitar as what?

  Changed to "It incorporates the acoustic guitar from 'A Life with You'"

Ah! Light bulb! You mean "It incorporates the acoustic guitar music as in 'A Life with You'". Er, yes?

• "it is a derivative of the Motown sound." I am not sure that is grammatical. Maybe 'it is a derived from the Motown sound' or similar?

  Changed to "derived from the Motown sound"

• "for her Las Vegas concert residency". Minor point: why "for"? 'at' or 'as part of' may flow better.

  Changed to "at"

A nice little article. But my big gripe is:

• The mentions of belting in both the lead and the article jar. "She uses belting as part of her vocal performance." The sentences just sit there, like factoids in a bullet list, unconnected to the sentences before and after. What is belting? Why does Carey use it? What do the critics think of her using it? How well or badly does Carey use it, or is considered to use it? What, if anything, does it add to the composition? There must be something you can say about it.

  Tried to make more clear by connecting her use of belting with the direct nature of the song. Added a note describing belting.

Gog the Mild (talk) 19:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, Heartfox (talk) 17:21, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Just when I was about to sign off on this I realised that you now arguably have more information on belting in the lead than in the main article. And why put the description of belting into a footnote? This means that a reader can only understand the part of the sentence after the semi colon if they have diverted via the footnote. And even then you haven't explicitly stated the link (as you do in the lead). Gog the Mild (talk) 17:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I think I got it: "The lyrics are about Carey confidently addressing a prospective lover. She uses belting, a "brassy, full-throated sound" common in musical theatre, to project this in her singing." Heartfox (talk) 17:40, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Sounds great. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:04, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments

• "She wrote the track with Marc Shemer, who also produced it with her, as Scram Jones" => She wrote the track with Marc Shemer, who also produced it with her under the name Scram Jones" (current wording could be taken to imply that Scram Jones was a joint pseudonym for both of them)

  Agreed

• I can't actually see a source in the article to confirm that Shemer and Jones are the same person

  I added a newspaper article that says "Marc Shemer, a k a Scram Jones, is a hip-hop artist/rapper and DJ from New Rochelle, N.Y. ..."

• That's it, I think! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  @ChrisTheDude: Thanks! Heartfox (talk) 19:03, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:30, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

UC

I enjoyed reading this one: in places, it feels a little thin, as if being excessively parsimonious about which pieces of information it passes on to the reader. I particularly felt this in the "Reception" section. More specific nit-picks below:

• In reviews, music critics compared Carey's vocals to their state in the 1990s.: It feels as if we're burying the important thing here: it seems from the body text that they generally thought the comparison was unfavourable, though admittedly there's not a whole lot of data points to go on down there.

  Changed sentence to "Some critics viewed "Your Girl" as one of the best tracks on The Emancipation of Mimi and others criticized her vocals."

• She uses belting as part of her vocal performance, which aligns with her upfront delivery: I admit to complete ignorance on the musical side here, but I have no idea how these two clauses would follow from each other (or, honestly, what "upfront delivery" is).

  Changed to "The lyrics of "Your Girl" are about Carey confidently approaching a potential lover. She uses belting as part of her vocal performance to evoke this sentiment in her singing."

• Critics described the music as containing disco, gospel, jazz, pop, and soul influences: do we need to hedge this behind the critics -- can we just say "the music is influenced by..."?

  Changed to "The music contains"

• Some viewed "Your Girl" as one of the best tracks on The Emancipation of Mimi. : as further up, this seems like a slightly misleading thing to put in the lead as the only real judgement on the song's quality, since it seems that some viewed it as pretty ropey.

  Changed sentence to "Some critics viewed "Your Girl" as one of the best tracks on The Emancipation of Mimi and others criticized her vocals."

• She performed the song live: suggest She has performed..., which implies that she might perform it again, as opposed to the current phrasing, which implies that she won't.

  Changed to "she has performed"

• For its follow-up, The Emancipation of Mimi (2005), she intended to displace overwrought ballads with more simplistic and authentic compositions: what does displace mean here? Are we talking about her changing her own musical style, or pushing others' ballads out of the market? Minor NPOV concerns on "overwrought", which is a loaded (negative) description, and "simplistic", which means "dumbed-down": I think "simple" was intended?

  Changed to "she intended to move on from singing elaborate ballads and instead create more simple and authentic compositions"

  I am inherently pretty wary of these kind of retrospective statements from creative people as to their intentions: they're inherently unverifiable, since we can never know what someone was thinking, and there are clear vested interests at play (with a few noble and notable exceptions, no artist is going to say "I wrote it like that because I thought it would sell more records and make me a whole load of money".) It's wiser, I think, to couch them as reported statements: for example, "in a 2020 interview, Carey said that she had intended...", which is absolutely verifiable. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  Prefaced by starting the sentence with "According to her,"

  • A small thing, but advise "simpler": as written, it's unclear whether more modifies simple or compositions. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 18:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist: Thanks, done. Heartfox (talk) 19:17, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• Retrospectively, Entertainment Weekly writer Michael Slezak attributed its lack of radio airplay to the number of other worthy tracks on The Emancipation of Mimi: perhaps this belongs in the Reception section, but it might be relevant to say which songs were considered more worthy?

  The author doesn't specifically mention any, only: "It says something about the depth of Carey’s latest disc that this lovely little ditty hasn’t yet made it to radio"

• Chris Gardner of The Hollywood Reporter described the song as a deep cut: similar to the bullet point above. Any idea what led him to say this?

  Added to the sentence: "described the song as a deep cut on the album in contrast to the commercially successful "We Belong Together", "Shake It Off", and "Say Somethin'""

• "Your Girl" was later promoted as part of the #MC30 campaign marking three decades of Carey's career: when was this?

  The sentence introduces the date in the next sentence "On January 29, 2021". There is also a link to MC30. I could add another ref to support "2020–2021 #MC30 campaign" but I feel that might be excessive.

  Indeed: it's the next sentence, so doesn't imply that the two happened at the same time. Compare: The United States fought a war of independence against Great Britain. Last week, the King visited the White House. That's a perfectly coherent statement of the same construction, but no reader would take away the implication that the War of Independence happened last week. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  Changed to ""Your Girl" was later promoted as part of the #MC30 campaign marking three decades of Carey's career in 2021. On January 29 that year, she issued an extended play..."

• All work occurred at various locations in New York City.: what does work mean in this context?

  Changed to "The production process occurred at various locations in New York City"

• Pat "Pat 'Em Down" Viala: is "Pat 'Em Down" a stage name? Suggest Pat Viala (also known as "Pat 'Em Down") or similar: we wouldn't say Stefani "Lady Gaga" Germanotta.

  He is credited as Pat "Pat 'Em Down" Viala in the liner notes, so that's what I used in the article.

• It incorporates the acoustic guitar from "A Life with You": suggest the acoustic guitar part or similar, to be clear that we mean the musical track, rather than someone playing the same instrument.

  Changed to "acoustic guitar part"

• a party for the group's record label: might be worth making it absolutely clear that this is Adeaze, not Jones and his collaborators. Does this mean "the record label owned by Adeaze" or "the record label to which Adeaze are signed"?

  Changed to "after performing at a party for Dawn Raid Entertainment, the record label to which Adeaze were signed."

• The arranger and guitarist of "A Life with You", Dominique Leauga, alleged he was not credited for his contributions: seems like an odd phrasing -- surely it's easy enough to find out whether he was credited or not? Presumably, he means that he wasn't credited, but felt that he should have been. This might need a bit more explanation.

  Changed to "was not credited for his contributions".

• a "brassy, full-throated sound" common in musical theatre,: per WP:NFCC, quotes should be attributed inline, but I need some convincing that we need this one as a quotation (as opposed to a paraphrase) anyway.

  Paraphrased as "full-throated technique common in musical theatre"

• In The New York Times, Jon Pareles said she uses an impersonal delivery: I think wrote is better than said, as it's in print (but stated would be fine).

  Changed to "stated"

• The song is "innocent, yet still a bit grimy" according to Carey: comma after the quotation?

  Added a comma after quotation

• There's something a bit "off" about the reviews section to me. We have four named reviews -- three are local news, and one is a fairly small British online newspaper. Where are the big hitters? Is the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, with its circulation of 48,000, really a major voice in music criticism?

  I looked at over 90 album reviews of The Emancipation of Mimi, and this is what I could extrapolate. I would definitely prioritize citing major publications, but for whatever reason the song didn't receive much attention from them. The section is still a thorough and representative survey of the literature that exists.

  I'm sure it is, but I think we could still do with giving the reader a bit more, rather than asking us to trust us. Out of all those 90 reviews, we seem to have four points of analysis: 1) her performance was confident; 2) her singing was good, because it was restrained; 3) her singing was bad, because it wasn't restrained; 4) her voice was "weaker", in some undefined way, than it had been before. It's a pretty dire comment on the music reviewing industry if that's the best that all ninety of them could do! Even then, if those views are widely held, we're doing a disservice by saying e.g. "Dave Tianen said...", if we really mean "Dave Tianen and another thirty-three reviewers said...". I would suggest both adding a few more names and fleshing out the points of praise and criticism a little more. It's a rather more complicated and studied piece of work, admittedly, but I think it would be illustrative to look at the relevant section in Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands, a recently promoted song FA: that section does an excellent job of distilling a lot of reading while still giving the reader a sense of the scale of the writing about the song. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  I added a sentence "Carey's vocals received largely negative reviews" to flesh out this theme more. Other than that I don't think there's more I can do. I would love for there to be more literature, but there isn't, and so I literally can't add more names to the section.

  I'm a little confused as to how this chimes with I looked at over 90 album reviews of The Emancipation of Mimi. Did eighty-six of them not mention the song at all? There seem to be some useful unused analytical comments in the reviews that have already been used to say that the reviewer thinks the song is particularly good. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, the vast majority of album reviews did not mention the song. I looked through the reviews again and didn't find anything new to add; if you can specify what are you are referring to that would be helpful. Heartfox (talk) 12:44, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Well, just from the ones in the article, we have:

  • "Carey comes off as confident and utterly carefree" (The Atlanta Constitution), which would seem to merit equal billing with the similar, if less poetic, comment from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

  This is already cited supporting the sentence "Her presence received positive feedback from Marino and Kevin C. Johnson of St. Louis Post-Dispatch, who viewed her as exuding confidence" – is "who both viewed her as exuding confidence" clearer?

  Ah, this is my misreading: I think it would be clearer with a from before "Kevin C. Johnson". As written, it sounds as if Marino is also of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Also agreed that adding "both" is necessary: at the moment, it looks as though who is just Johnson. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Changed to "Her presence received positive feedback from both Marino and Kevin C. Johnson"

  That doesn't fix the problem, I'm afraid. As above, would advise Her presence received positive feedback from Marino and from Kevin C. Johnson of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, who both viewed her as exuding confidence. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 17:29, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Added your suggestion

  • The chorus is an exercise in exhilaration that arrives in a high-registered delirium ... It’s a transcendent moment so bright it’s nearly blinding (Pitchfork): this is much better than the trivial amount of commentary we currently have on the chorus (that it's catchy, and sounds a bit like gospel).

  Added the quote.

  • Billboard calls it a "fan favorite" as well as a deep cut, which gives the opposite impression to what we have currently said: as we've framed it, nobody really listens to it.

  I don't really view this as encyclopedic. "Carey's fans like the song a lot" doesn't add much to the article. The link to "deep cut" at wiktionary already implies this with the listed definition: "Any obscure work, a thing likely to be recognized only by a connoisseur" (ie Carey fans).

  It does, though we shouldn't force readers to follow links to understand important points about this article (MOS:NOFORCELINK). More to the point, that's the second, general definition: the first, specifically musical, definition reads An obscure song by a well known musician. As it stands, I think we've misrepresented Gardner's comments: our article implies that it is little known and largely unsuccessful; he says it is widely known and beloved among her fans, of whom there are quite a few. If readers have to navigate to a new page and pick the right definition out of three to get our point, we need to make it more clearly in the first place. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Gardner doesn't say at all that "it is widely known and beloved among her fans". The quote is "Alongside The Emancipation of Mimi’s biggest hits like “We Belong Together,” “Shake it Off” and “Say Something,” Carey also performed “deep cuts” like the fan favorite “Circles,” a track that she said she wrote with “the late, great Big Jim White,” and “Your Girl.”"

  Added a sentence about fan favorite: "According to Billboard, "Your Girl" is a favorite song among Carey's fans."

  As you say, I'd named the wrong reviewer (it was Rowley in Billboard), but we seem to have ended up in the right place regardless. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 17:29, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  • The rather unkind Independent review goes into much more detail as to the reviewer's problems with the music, particularly lyrical unoriginality and what he sees as lazy production, when talking about the album as a whole.

  I would never cite general comments about an album as a whole as relating to a song when the song is not explicitly mentioned. This leans too much into synthesis and the reviewer's opinion is more relevant for the album article.

  If a reviewer is writing about all of the songs on the album, as here, those comments also apply to the individual songs. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  They may, but I think it's still undue weight to apply that to every song article when it is in the context of the album and a song article should be focused on reception where the song is actually explicitly mentioned. If a critic said "All of Carey's songs are boring" are we supposed to consider adding that to every song article? No, it's more pertinent in the main biography. It's dangerous and disingenuous to present these broader sentiments as about a specific song. Doing more of this would open a can of worms and introduce so much synthesis. It's just lazy, malpractice to rely on broad statements about an album and apply them to individual songs. We don't know if a critic would say the same thing if they were only reviewing one song. That the album "contains not one nanosecond of original thought, elevating lyric, nor interesting music" does not mean the author singled out this song as such and I don't feel comfortable presenting things like that. This is more relevant for the album article.

  If the review says that the album contains "not one nanosecond" of those things, they are saying that this song contains none of them. This is a fairly minor point overall, but in this case the reviewer has gone out of their way to say that their comments apply every one of the songs in question. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 17:29, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  As the song is not explicitly mentioned, I do not believe this critique is notable for inclusion in the song article. This would create a precedent that would require going back to all of the album reviews and seeing where stuff like "Carey's voice sounds good on the album" and "Carey's voice sounds bad on the album" comes up. Adding these types of vague responses about the album as a whole to every song article is inappropriate when there is no specific song mentioned and would duplicate the album's critical reception section where it is far more relevant to place. This proposal would give undue weight to reviewers who either loved or hated the album as ones in the middle would be unable to make sweeping statements about every song like The Independent.

  I could only access one review in addition to those, and that's four quite big bit bits of useful additional context from five sources. That doesn't give me much confidence that there's nothing at all to be gained from any of the other eighty-five. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 13:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• It's usually spelled a cappella: any reason for the single p?

  The source used the single "p" – I don't really care either way

  The double p is "correct" (it's Italian for "from the chapel", and the Italian for "chapel" is cappella: the single-p spelling is a mistake so common that it's sometimes accepted as a variant, though I don't think any significant publication prefers it. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  Changed to double p

• In 2005, Slezak listed "Your Girl" among the 10 best songs of her career. Escobedo Shepherd considered it one of Carey's top 20 tracks in a 2007 Vibe article. Billboard ranked it at number 38 on their 2020 list of Carey's 100 greatest songs: there may not be much you can do about this, but the shifting dates create a comparability problem here: presumably Carey has written a lot of songs in the past 20 years, so being in the top 40 in 2020 might well be more impressive than being in the two 10 in 2005?

  I think moving chronologically flows fine.

  The direction of travel is not the problem; the problem is that there's an important piece of missing context to these numbers (the increasing scale of Carey's discography). However, as I said, that might not be a problem we can fix here. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

As ever, I hope this is helpful, and please do counter-quibble where it's warranted. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 17:12, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist: Thank you for the helpful comments, I have replied above. Heartfox (talk) 18:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi UC, just checking if you had anything to add following Heartfox's latest changes. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:21, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Not sure I do: the article has definitely moved forward, but I think my overall impression is still much the same. Some broad-brush things that stick out and keep me, at the moment, from moving to support:

• The prose is generally a bit "choppy" -- it moves from idea to idea, or critic to critic, quickly, but I don't have much sense of coherence within paragraphs or sections.

Every paragraph has a topic sentence and a theme. Multiple opinions may be combined in the same paragraph, but the paragraph is still focused on a theme. And these paragraphs aren't long at all so I don't think the organization is unreasonable. I can understand that some areas might feel short, but this is may just be a product of the literature available rather than the intent of the article's organization. To be fair, there is use of commas and "and" for similar statements and semicolons for flow and stuff. Not every sentence is just 1 critic and then a period.

• I think there are technical problems with putting citations in subheadings, though I'm struggling to find the precise bit of guidance.

This was requested in the source review. I think because the bolded pseudo-headings are not actually headings, there aren't any technical problems introduced as outlined in MOS:HEADINGS

• I'm still not sure we quite have the depth in places: for instance, we talk about an explanation for the song's lack of radio airplay, but don't really establish that it had a lack of airplay beforehand. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:30, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Moved this to the second paragraph: ""Your Girl" did not receive significant airplay from radio stations. Entertainment Weekly writer Michael Slezak attributed this to the number of other worthy tracks on The Emancipation of Mimi." Heartfox (talk) 08:45, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Aoba47

• I have a comment on this sentence from the lead: (Carey later released two remixes featuring rappers Cam'ron, Juelz Santana, and N.O.R.E as part of a digital extended play.) I think that it would be beneficial to clarify the year that the EP was released as "later" is rather vague.

  Added the year: "as part of a 2021 digital extended play"

• I think more context could be added to the part on Glitter as it seems to gloss over the reasons for Carey leaving Island Def Jam. I can understand the rationale against it as this song is not about Glitter, but I still believe it would be beneficial to have a brief part to provide further context to readers. I was thinking of something along the lines of "Following the critical and commercial disappointments of her album Glitter (2001)". The Pitchfork citation used in this sentence would already support this addition as it describes Glitter as a "commercial flop reviled by critics". Again, just something really brief would help.

  Added this context as suggested

I hope this review is helpful. The article is in great shape, and I just have two nitpick-y comments. I always enjoy reading your articles. I have been listening to Charmbracelet lately so I thought it would be nice to review a Mariah-related article. Best of luck with the FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 23:29, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@Aoba47: Thank you for the review! Heartfox (talk) 02:39, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for addressing everything. I support this FAC for promotion. I hope you are having a great weekend so far. Aoba47 (talk) 14:31, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Source and image review

I presume that File:Mariah Carey Your Girl Sample.ogg is representative of the song's themes or style or whatever? I notice that the two files don't use the same formatting for their source/origination. Does the ogg file have an ALT text or equivalent? Source formatting seems consistent. "Carey's vocals received largely negative reviews" is currently attached to Abbott 2005, which does not support it as we can't extrapolate from just one review. I wonder which logic is used for applying webarchive, newspapers.com and ProQuest links and their formatting. In the credits and personnel section, do the references support just the bullet point they are attached to, or the entire (sub)section? In the latter case, you should put them in the (sub)header or after each bullet. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:05, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• "I presume that File:Mariah Carey Your Girl Sample.ogg is representative of the song's themes or style or whatever?" → Yes this is mentioned in the NFUR: "The section of the music used is discussed in the article in relation to the song (belting vocal style, background vocals, composition, lyrics) which received critical commentary and are mentioned in adjacent text. The sample includes the final words of the chorus which includes the song title "Your Girl" and thus helps readers understand the major theme of the song and connects the title with the lyrics and sound."
• "Does the ogg file have an ALT text or equivalent?" → Alt text for Template:Listen is only when there is an image. I didn't bother adding the lyrics as the sample is only 12 seconds and 2 lines long.
• "Carey's vocals received largely negative reviews" → This is meant as a summary of the following two sentences in which 3 opinions are negative and 1 is positive. Added the sfns to the summary sentence to avoid confusion.
• "I wonder which logic is used for applying webarchive, newspapers.com and ProQuest links and their formatting" → Generally everything that can be found freely online uses the publication's URL while resources only available on databases like Newspapers.com and ProQuest have links to those. All archive URLs that show the full text are given, as archiving a ProQuest page with no text is not helpful.
• "In the credits and personnel section, do the references support just the bullet point they are attached to, or the entire (sub)section" → They support the entire section; moved them to the subheadings.

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Thank you for the review, Heartfox (talk) 01:12, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

OK, I guess. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Pulgasari

Nominator(s): Eiga-Kevin2 (talk) 01:29, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

This article is about Pulgasari, an absurd 1985 North Korean/Japanese/Chinese monster movie by a kidnapped South Korean filmmaker. It's been 39 years since its production, and the film has become a cult classic worldwide. I have done some major reworking of this page over the last few months, and so far it has since been listed as a good article and received a copyedit. This is my third time nominating an article for FA. Thanks in advance to anyone who offers any feedback. Eiga-Kevin2 (talk) 01:29, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Support

Emerging from the void to offer mt support. Looking over the article, I don't see any issues with sources or prose. The only issue would be making sure the image licenses are fully clarified as free to use and (or) have the right attributions to satisfy the WP:NFCC#8. Other than that, well done. Paleface Jack (talk) 16:51, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Pulgasari_poster_japan.jpg has a dead source link and incomplete FUR

• File:19660529申相玉.jpg has a dead source link and is missing info on first publication

• File:Pulgasary.png has an incomplete FUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe I've fixed the link and FUR problems on File:Pulgasari_poster_japan.jpg and File:Pulgasary.png but there's not much I can do for File:19660529申相玉.jpg, as that one's source appears inaccessible, not dead. Could remove that and Kim's photo and replace them with a non-free one of Shin and Kim together. Eiga-Kevin2 (talk) 18:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I've just changed File:19660529申相玉.jpg to the Non-free use file File:Shin, Kim Il Sung, and Choi.png from the year of the film's production. I will remove it if its use is deemed unacceptable by anyone. Eiga-Kevin2 (talk) 01:51, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

See my comment about this file's non-free use at User talk:Eiga-Kevin2#File:Shin, Kim Il Sung, and Choi.png for more details, but I don't think this non-free use can be justified per Wikipedia's non-free content use policy. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

My apologies for changing File:19660529申相玉.jpg to a non-free use file. I believe I have now done the right thing by replacing it with a fairly rare photo of Shin that is in the public domain in the United States and South Korea. Eiga-Kevin2 (talk) 07:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

seefooddiet

• For romanizing South Korean author names in references, are you following the procedure in WP:KOREANNAME? Some of the romanizations are non-standard; e.g. "Kim, Joo-won" should be "Kim, Ju-won" per KOREANNAME. seefooddiet (talk) 09:01, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I didn't look at KOREANNAME, I just went by consulted my Korean friend about the English spelling of them a few times and went by Google Translate elsewhere. I'll do my best to re-write the names based on WP:NCKOREAN henceforth but might need more assistance. Eiga-Kevin2 (talk) 17:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

You can try this automatic converter [17] to get the Revised Romanization spellings. The converter is sometimes incorrect though; if you give it your best effort I can go through later and correct mistakes seefooddiet (talk) 22:54, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Also note that Google Translate doesn't produce the romanizations we prefer for Korean; see MOS:KO-ROMAN, second row of the table seefooddiet (talk) 22:55, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

My apologies for not replying sooner, I've been quite busy lately. I'll fix any romanizations that are incorrect over the next few days. Eiga-Kevin2 (talk) 07:48, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I've fixed all of the romanizations now as far as I can tell. Eiga-Kevin2 (talk) 00:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Some possible mistakes in ref romanizations. What would make these not mistakes is if you've seen these specific people using this spelling for their surnames.

• "Moon" -> "Mun" for "Moon, Seok"
• "Noh" -> "No" for "Noh, Sun-dong"
• "Choi" -> "Choe" for "Choi, Yeong-chang"
• For the Kim, Jung-ki ref I'm not seeing the author's name given on the article website. Is his name spelled 김중키 or 김중기? I suspect it's the latter; former is uncommon. If so, it should be "Kim Jung-gi".

Other comment:

• Cast and production section also need to be romanized per WP:KOREANNAME. These spelling systems will unfortunately vary by person, depending on who is North Korean and who is South Korean. North Koreans use McCune–Reischauer, South Koreans Revised Romanization. If you don't know a person's nationality, I think assuming North Korean by default is fine.

seefooddiet (talk) 01:09, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Changed "Moon", "Noh", and "Choi" per your suggestions. Kim Jung-ki's name is spelled 金重基 in the source and I've found it hard to directly translate. And for the staff and cast, I've already done some research on most of them and it seems Shin is the only one whose nationality is confirmed to be South Korean (IMDb does claim the film's star, Chang Son-hui, was born in South Korea but I can't find their source for that and a source in this article indicates otherwise). So probably keeping their names as McCune–Reischauer translations would be fine I presume. Eiga-Kevin2 (talk) 03:41, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

[18] 基 -> "gi". Unfortunately "重" can be read either 중 (jung) or 동 (dong). I can't find for certain what his name is through googling, but I suspect it is "Jung-gi". Think it's minimally harmful to put that down.

The MR for the cast and production crew are incorrect; I'll fix them. I'll just leave Shin Sang-ok's name as it is. seefooddiet (talk) 21:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Gave it a pass; you'll need to verify that the new spellings are consistent throughout the article although I gave it a solid try.

Notes:

• I try to avoid putting Korean text glosses in infoboxes; some of the names in there are not in the body of the article and effectively unsourced I think. Once you also put them in the body, you should also move the glosses to the body too.
• It's possible that 유경애 (Yu Kyŏngae)'s surname should be changed. It's reasonably common for the surname 柳 to be written 류 (ryu) in North Korea and 유 (yu) in South Korea due to dialect (similar to how 李 is 리 (ri) in North Korea and 이 (i) in South Korea), although this is not universal practice. Some South Koreans use Ryu and probably vice versa. South Korean sources sometimes South Koreanize these surnames by default, regardless of the personal preference of the person, although they did give "리" consistently. Tl;dr to be extra correct this person's name could be researched; probably a North Korean poster with Korean writing would work.

seefooddiet (talk) 21:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

These translations seem mostly fine but I think Chŏng Kŏnjo should be changed back to Chong Gon-jo since that's what Satsuma and Western sources call him. Also, maybe we could hide the translations within the article's source (using the <!-- --> thing) and use those translations featured on the English-langauge poster instead? Eiga-Kevin2 (talk) 01:22, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for long answer, romanizing Korean is complicated.

• Yes you can change back "Chong Gon-jo" if you have know of wide attestation to that spelling, per step #1 of WP:KOREANNAME.
• For your second use of "translations", do you mean the orig Hangul text? See here for an explanation of why we would want to display Hangul. Also few non-Wikipedians know about invisible comments (<!-- -->), which is why we generally display Korean text in article.
• It's nice that we have an English-language poster, but some complications. Korean romanization is such a mess that a single attestation is often not enough to be confident in what spelling to use. E.g. on that poster it says "Pulgasary" on top; do we use that spelling? Instead of using the ad-hoc romanizations on the poster and risking confusion, it's often safer to default to a systematic romanization. This is what the community has settled on so far.
• The above confusion is why we have the steps laid out in WP:KOREANNAME. Chong Gon-jo meets step #1, I'm not sure if the poster is sufficient evidence of step #2; it may be, but often enough romanizations for people names differ by appearance or even across time so it's hard to be sure.

seefooddiet (talk) 02:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Alright understood;

• I've changed the co-director's name back to Chong Gon-jo and added sources for this.
• Yes I meant the Hangul text. I think it's fine to have them on display, and was mostly asking because I'm just not a fan of them being in the infobox if the translations are mentioned elsewhere on the article.
• As for the poster text, it coincides with how some older sources give the film the English title of "Pulgasary" so I'm thinking of mentioning that in the note for the film's title. And I don't think the name spellings on the poster apply with step #2 of WP:KOREANNAME after checking.

Eiga-Kevin2 (talk) 03:44, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok, sounds good, thank you for working with me! Romanization of Korean is unfortunately complicated. If you ever run into a similar situation with Korean feel free to poke me.

On another note, I think the footnotes subsection and the citations subsection should possibly be merged; they're functionally the same thing. seefooddiet (talk) 20:22, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Much appreciated. Will notify you if I experience any further problems romanizing Korean. And I've considered merging those sections btw, but the GA reviewer and a friend of mine seemed to like how the References section is formated (also it's something pages like Mission: Impossible – Fallout feature). Eiga-Kevin2 (talk) 07:01, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments by ZKang123

If I'm correct, if this passes FAC, this might be one of the first North Korea-focussed article (outside of those related to the Korean War) to be given the bronze star. Let me have a look.

Lead:

• Shin and his wife had remained in North Korea since 1978, when their kidnapping was initiated by Kim Jong Il, the country's heir apparent. – This wording is a bit odd, probably especially the use of "remained" as though the couple voluntarily stayed in North Korea. I might reword as: Shin and his wife were in captivity in North Korea since their kidnapping by Kim Jong Il in 1978. or another wording, if you prefer. Also wikilink their abduction.
• Pulgasari was submitted in February 1985 – submitted to who and what for? Did Shin propose the film and submit it to Kim for approval? Also reading later, I would add "The pitch for Pulgasari was submitted..."
• Its Japanese critical reception was positive... – Critical reception in Japan was positive...

I don't as much comments for the plot and cast list.

Production:

• A collection of around 15,000[11][32] to 20,000[7][34] titles was reported to be in Kim's possession. New releases from around the globe were typically added to his collection shortly after opening in theaters. – Kim was reported to have a collection of 15,000 to 20,000 titles of Shin's films. Every new release from around the globe were typically added to his collection shortly after their opening in theaters.
• the film industry there – the country's film industry
• while a larger studio was under construction for the film. – while a larger studio was constructed for the film.
• The Japanese crew developed the Pulgasari suit at Toho from April 28 to late May. Nobuyuki Yasumaru was in charge of modeling it – The Japanese crew developed the Pulgasari suit at Toho from April 28 to late May, with Nobuyuki Yasumaru in charge of modeling it
• loved the reboot so much he sought – loved the reboot so much that he sought
• Shin recalled that Kim had suggested making the monster resemble a cow. – Shin recalled Kim’s suggestion to design the monster resembling a cow.
• For the sentence Pulgasari was ultimately set in Goryeo but..., I think it's a bit too long and could be split such that ...was based on the Forbidden City complex in Beijing. The special effects crew...
• which covered approximately 20,000 pyeong – I think a conversion to SI units might be in order here. Especially for other mentions of pyeong.
• Satsuma said about the destruction of the palace in the Pulgasari suit for the film, he was "impressed that the Chinese government could allow such an ambitious filming, even if it was just a movie". – Satsuma mentioned he was "impressed that the Chinese government could allow such an ambitious filming, even if it was just a movie" when talking about the destruction of the palace in the Pulgasari suit for the film.

Release:

• According to many retrospective sources, the film was, however, banned both in North Korea and overseas in the wake of Shin and Choi escaping North Korean supervisors in Vienna on March 12 and subsequently fleeing to the United States. – According to many retrospective sources, the film was, however, banned both in North Korea and overseas when Shin and Choi escaped their North Korean supervisors in Vienna on March 12 and subsequently fled to the United States.
• On January 21, 1995, Twin released Pulgasari on VHS in Japan – I was initially confused what is "Twin". Might clarify that.
• but were all turned down. – but all were turned down
• due to a cultural exchange agreement for the June 15th North–South Joint Declaration – Shouldn't it be "in the June 15th..." or "as part of the..."
• Johannes Schönherr said contemporaneous publications cited many reasons – "...said... cited..." I might just say Johannes Schönherr cited many reasons or reword in another manner like Johannes Schönherr cited reasonings by contemporaneous publications on its failure in South Korea.

Reception:

• South Korean reviewers also criticized the acting. – can further elaborate in what way from the source?
• Shin rejected interpretations the film may have conveyed a message about North Korea's contemporaneous class conflict. – Shin rejected interpretations about the film's messages on North Korea's contemporaneous class conflict.

That's all I have. Great work for this article so far.--ZKang123 (talk) 09:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@ZKang123: Thanks! I've just revised everything here based on your suggestions, clarified that Kim's film collection was not just of Shin's movies, and specified what kind of company Twin is. Eiga-Kevin2 (talk) 19:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Happy to support. Additionally, I found another review by a freelance journalist on the film. --ZKang123 (talk) 12:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Northern Bank robbery

Nominator(s): Mujinga (talk) 18:35, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

The still unsolved Northern Bank robbery took place in 2004 in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Working with military precision, an armed gang took family members of workers hostage, in order to force them to hand over £26.5 million in cash. The reaction of both the UK and the Irish governments was that the IRA was behind the heist, causing a rupture in the then ongoing peace process. It's now twenty years later and nobody has ever been directly convicted for the crime. Whilst Ted Cunningham does continue to fight his money laundering conviction, the article is stable and I hope ready to be a featured article. Mujinga (talk) 18:35, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

• "£4.5 million in used notes supplied by other banks" This would include Bank of England notes?

  Moore says these other used notes were "made up of Bank of Ireland, First Trust, Bank of England and other notes". I could be more specific if you think it's necessary? Mujinga (talk) 16:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• I'm wondering why the hundred-pound notes did not cause more of a problem than they did. Do they pass that freely in Northern Ireland? I know the Bank of England only goes up to fifty pounds.

  I don't remember anything in the sources discussing that unfortunately Mujinga (talk) 16:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• "The arrests were made under the Offences against the State Act.[19] " Does this convey something that I'm missing? Also, Offenses against the State Act is double linked.

  It's in the source and since the act was mentioned earlier, seems worth mentioning (and linking) again, but that's as far as my rationale goes. Mujinga (talk) 16:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• "After the Good Friday Agreement of 1998 ..." At least the first half of this paragraph has the feel of background rather than legacy.

  I can see what you mean, if it's OK I'd like to see what other reviewers think Mujinga (talk) 16:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• "Ripe for the picking: The inside story of the Northern Bank robbery" Should be in title case.

  I've used sentence case in the refs so perhaps it makes more sense to have sentence case here as well. But in that event, then Northern Heist should prob be Northern heist, so I've changed that one Mujinga (talk) 16:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• I don't see why the Portuguese bank note crisis of 1925 is a see also. That was nothing like this, that was someone forging the authority for the bank note printers to print new currency and passing the resultant currency. It's not a particularly close case of money laundering to this.

• • Sure, removed Mujinga (talk) 16:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Very interesting.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:30, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the comments, I've replied on everything. Mujinga (talk) 16:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Some images are missing alt text

  good point, fixed Mujinga (talk) 17:08, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• File:NorthernBankNI20.jpg needs a more expansive FUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:12, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  could you give me some guidance here on what is required? to me it makes sense to include the image since it improves the article to see an examplar of a note which was withdrawn from circulation as a result of the heist. this was also discussed regarding Wikipedia:Non-free_content_criteria#8 at the GA review with @HJ Mitchell: - who actually I forgot to alert about the FAC! Mujinga (talk) 17:08, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Nikkimaria thanks for the comments, replies made Mujinga (talk) 17:08, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• There's some explanation at Template:Non-free use rationale, but what you're really looking for is a rationale as to why a non-free image is necessary for reader understanding. What does a reader get from actually seeing the note, on top of them just being told a note was withdrawn as a result? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  Great thanks so we are also talking Wikipedia:Non-free_content_criteria#8 and I don't think the image "significantly increases" the reader's comprehension of the article, so I've removed it Mujinga (talk) 11:48, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

SC

• "Sinn Féin, however, denied": you can lose the 'however': it does nothing useful here

  I'm not tied to it, but I think it's doing something as all the big players are saying the IRA did it but then Sinn Féin denies it Mujinga (talk) 21:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  "Orde ... blamed the Provisional IRA for the robbery. ... Sinn Féin denied the Chief Constable's claim": it says exactly the same thing but without the "however". - SchroCat (talk) 09:57, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  I'd like to see what other people think on this. To expand on my rationale: commentators, police officers, the Chief Constable of the PSNI (ie Orde), the British government and the body appointed by the Irish and British governments to oversee the Northern Ireland ceasefires (ie IMC) all immediately blamed the IRA (as did the Irish Taoiseach Bertie Ahern although that's below in the text), but Sinn Féin (ie the political party associated with the IRA) then denied it, so for the "however" is flagging this up. Mujinga (talk) 11:11, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  As I’ve shown above, the text without the ‘however’ does exactly the same thing, but with one less word, which is one of the most over used (and badly used) words on WP). - SchroCat (talk) 21:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• "On the other hand,": You can lose these four words happily: they do nothing and are unencyclopaedic filler

  good point, removed Mujinga (talk) 21:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• "in compost and Cunningham": As this stands, the money was discovered after being found and after the couple were taken for questioning. A semi colon in place of the 'and' would work better.

  rejigged the sentence Mujinga (talk) 21:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• "The PSNI stated it was a stunt attempting to divert attention from the heist yet it was being investigated": there's a couple of bits awry here, including the word "stunt". Maybe better framed as "The PSNI stated it was an attempt to divert attention from the heist, but was being investigated".

  rephrased and actually "stunt" gets used quite soon after so it's good to remove it here Mujinga (talk) 21:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• "Hugh Orde described": Just "Orde", as you've already full named him

  done - as with the other names below I've reduced it to one full naming per section Mujinga (talk) 21:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• "went in 25 Land Rovers": is this level of detail necessary?

  it conveys that it was a large operation, but rather journalistically, so I've removed it Mujinga (talk) 21:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• "Ted Cunningham was found guilty": Just 'Cunningham' is necessary
• "Bertie Ahern suspected Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness" -> "Ahern suspected Adams and McGuinness"
• "meeting with Ted Cunningham" -> "meeting with Cunningham"
• "When Gerry Adams denied" -> "When Adams denied"
• "regarding the murder of McGuigan": who is McGuigan and where does this fit in with the robbery in which no-one was killed?

  good spot, I've rejigged this bit and got rid of the Mcguigan sentence Mujinga (talk) 22:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• "the House of Commons of the United Kingdom by Ulster Unionist Party (UUP)" -> "the House of Commons by UUP" (the common name for the Commons will suffice, and you've already full-named, linked and provided the abbreviation for UUP a couple of lines above.

  done Mujinga (talk) 22:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Check your linking of sources - I see the Daily telegraph is linked, but many are not, and consistency is key.

  thanks for that, I've unlinked it as I prefer to not wikilink the sources Mujinga (talk) 22:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

That's my lot. - SchroCat (talk) 14:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• Cheers for the comments, I've been chipping away at them and now I've answered them all Mujinga (talk) 22:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
• I'll add my support, but see above for my comment about the unnecessary 'however' which adds nothing to aid understanding or clarity. - SchroCat (talk) 10:11, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for the support, I've replied on the "however" issue above Mujinga (talk) 11:11, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Claire Redfield

Nominator(s): 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 04:38, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

This article is about a character from the Resident Evil game and film series; who is known for her red jacket and ponytail. The article recently received copyedits. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 04:38, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

You forgot to add a template to the talk page for this. GamerPro64 02:23, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Oops, missed it. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 03:37, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Image is appropriately justified. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:11, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Shapeyness

Hi Boneless Pizza!, thanks for your work on the article! Here are some comments from a first read-through, mainly to do with style. Shapeyness (talk) 19:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Critics have positively responded to Claire's personality and as a strong female lead character. Should this be "and her role as a strong female lead character"?

Done

• Several journalists also considered Claire significantly less sexualized than other female game characters; she was also cited as an example of a female character who was as competent and skilled as her male counterparts, though her costumes and design in the Resident Evil 2 remake were criticized. Minor one but imo this is a bit long and awkward (and repetitive), optionally might want to reword/restructure the sentence and/or split it up into a few shorter sentences

Done

• Producer Michiteru Okabe believed that this was a good thing since it shows that he consider them to be entirely different personalities rather than simply their gender. Not the best worded, maybe something like would be better: Producer Michiteru Okabe reflected that they had not reduced the two characters to their gender and had instead given them unique personalities, which he felt reflected positively on the direction of the video game industry at the time.

Done

• He also landed on the idea that the players can play multiple roles and stated that "it isn't two against the world, it's one against the world with a helper". Why is this relevant?

Done

• Okabe also hinted that Claire's experience would be more traumatizing than other protagonists' as she is not prepared for such a situation This should mention that it is other protagonists in the Resident Evil franchise. The sentence also doesn't really explain why she isn't prepared for the situation or how this feeds into her design/characterisation.

Done

• They were excited to do so because they really prefer Claire Previous sentence already mentions that they were a fan of the character so I don't think this is needed (it is also less encyclopedic in tone)

Done

• Voice-over and live-action actresses section - maybe adding a picture for the live action actresses would be helpful, what do you think?

  I added only for it to be simple. Done. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 13:08, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• She encounters a young girl named Sherry Birkin in the Raccoon Police Department building, including the mutated scientist William Birkin. The bit after the comma doesn't make sense in this sentence I don't think so needs rewording

This one was removed so the sentence now makes sense, but William Birkin isn't introduced anymore. Would this work? She encounters a young girl named Sherry Birkin in the Raccoon Police Department building, who is being pursued by her father, the mutated scientist William Birkin. Shapeyness (talk) 13:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes it is. Changed 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 21:19, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• and finds the vaccine to let Sherry's scientist mother Annette Birkin cure her daughter before dying from her injuries The her in "before dying from her injuries" is ambiguous

I made some edits to this one, hopefully that is ok and feel free to change if I got anything wrong! One small change that is still needed: this paragraph doesn't mention that Sherry is infected before it says she is cured, which it should. Shapeyness (talk) 13:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Added it. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 21:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I made some more edits, I haven't played the game so if I get anything wrong please correct me! One thing I'm not sure about, do you know how Arnette is injured? The paragraph says "Annette dies from her injuries" but it doesn't say what injured her. Shapeyness (talk) 00:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• director Paul W. S. Anderson and producer Jeremy Bolt decided to bring Claire into the film because they thought her inclusion was important Why did they think it was important?

This still says they thought including her was important, but doesn't say why they thought it was important to include her. Shapeyness (talk) 13:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I ended up removing it 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 21:20, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Just read the source and realised it is a bit weirdly worded, I agree that removing it makes sense. Don't forget to re-add the first movie name though "Resident Evil: Extinction". Shapeyness (talk) 00:59, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I already added it. Any thoughts now or conclusion? 😊 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 12:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• She plays a major role in Resident Evil: Degeneration (2008), reuniting her with Leon I think this should be something like "in which she is reunited with Leon" or "where she is reunited with Leon".

Done

• IGN editors and Kimberly Wallace of Game Informer both praised with Wallace stating that Claire is her favorite Resident Evil character Both praised what?

Done

• as well as her portrayal in the horror game This is a bit vague

Done

• An essay in Nadine Farghaly's Unraveling Resident Evil also compared Claire to the "typical trope" of "a virgin or tomboy" This might need explaining a bit more - why does the essay say this?
• In general, I think the reception section could do a better job of identifying key themes from different writers and exploring them, atm it feels a bit directionless

  Hi Shapeyness. Thanks for the review. I already dealth with all of your concerns. Some of them have been removed. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 13:19, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for responding to my comments, I have added some more comments to help keep track. Shapeyness (talk) 13:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@Shapeyness Done. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 21:22, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Boneless Pizza!, thanks for all the changes you've made and sorry I've been busy for the last few days. I think the main area for improvement remains the reception section. Try to read through sources on Claire and figure out what the main themes are that different critics/journalists have agreed on or discussed, and try to group paragraphs together by theme. Also, can you check that the timeline "Resident Evil games featuring Claire Redfield" is accurate? Some of the games are not mentioned in the article. Thanks, Shapeyness (talk) 14:51, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Shapeyness We don't put other RE games that are not canon and are remakes in the timeline per other FAs. I made a few changes from the reception section. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 22:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, maybe it's clearer if I list the ones I'm talking about: Resident Evil: Zombie Busters and Resident Evil: The Darkside Chronicles are in the timeline but not mentioned anywhere in the article. Shapeyness (talk) 18:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Review from Crisco 1492

• She was given a tougher appearance in Resident Evil – Code: Veronica (2000), the reason being her experiences in Resident Evil 2 built her toughness and confidence to handle any situation. - Does the source also mention the interlude between the games where Claire is explicitly undertaking efforts to sabotage Umbrella? If I remember the game correctly, the reason she's captured at the beginning is because she was infiltrating the labs in France.
• James Baker - The RE Wiki claims that baker was a pseudonym, which makes sense. We should be able to find a source for this, somewhere, as otherwise the name may come as a surprise to readers
• clearing up after bioterrorism incidents - Clearing up or cleaning up? It's been a few years since I played this instalment.
• In the end, both of them survive, along with Barry, who arrived to look for them, and a little girl named Natalia Korda. - This is the canon ending... but I seem to recall that there is an alternative ending where Moira fails to overcome her fear of guns, and thus Claire is killed by a creature. (IGN goes into some detail, though I'm not sure if it meets the RS guidelines
• Worth mentioning that the Claire skin was a DLC for DbD?
• "defenseless little girl" - Might be worth contextualizing this as applying only to RE2, as Sherry takes a few levels in badass by the time she hits her twenties (i.e., Resident Evil 6).
• Conversely, Ravi Sinha of GamingBolt considered the character's design to be among the worst in video games, noting that her appearance is "quite odd" and stated that the developers should have kept her original design,[75] while feminist media critic Anita Sarkeesian of Tropes vs. Women in Video Games criticized Claire's alternate costumes as too revealing, particularly the motorsport umbrella costume - Are they writing this in regards to RE2 remake, or in regards to Elza Walker? Definitely worth specifying.
• Are there any sources contrasting Claire with the more sexualized female characters in the series? Ada would be a likely comparison, given they both debuted in the same game, and Ada has been particularly sexualized.
• I've made some edits. Please review. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 19:28, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Corleck Head

Nominator(s): Ceoil (talk) 00:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

A haunting three-faced Celtic stone head dated to the 1st century AD, ie only a few hundred-odd years before written Irish history, yet it seems endlessly ancient and enigmatic. The article has received a number of skilled copyedits (by John especially), became a GA during the summer (after a review by Hog Farm) and recently went through an exhaustive and very rewarding peer review (mainly UndercoverClassicist). Ceoil (talk) 00:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

UC

Good to see this here: will review once a few others have been past, as I've already said my piece on the current version at PR. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:35, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

As promised -- I hope this lot is useful. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:53, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• Its use probably continued through the early Christian period into early modern celebrations of the Lughnasadh, a Gaelic pagan harvest festival.: We usually reckon "Early Modern" to be c. 1485 – c. 1688 or so in British history. Do I read rightly that it was used during that time period? Similarly, with "pagan": unless we're saying that a non-Christian community existed at that time, we need to say something more mealy-mouthed like "a harvest festival originally of pre-Christian origin" ("pagan" is something of a dirty word in Late Antique scholarship, since it would have meant nothing to the people whom it described, and lumps together a hugely heterogeneous religious world).
• Historians assume they were hidden during the Early Middle Ages: this doesn't seem to fit with the dates established by the previous comment.

Addressed. Ceoil (talk) 00:19, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Almost a century later, it came to national attention in 1937 : do we need the almost a century later? Likewise, where it is usually on display: is that going to be a surprise to many readers?

  Done. Ceoil (talk) 21:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• a tricephalic skull cut off before the neck, with three faces.: not sure this is quite right. Tricephalic, strictly, means having three heads, and I don't think there's any indication that this skull would originally have had two siblings. If we simply mean "three-faced", it's tautological, as we say that a bit later.
• a tricephalic skull cut off before the neck ... The head cuts off just below the chin: seems a bit repetitious (this is all within three lines on my screen).

Trimmed. Ceoil (talk) 21:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• They are similar but not identical in form and their enigmatic, complex expressions: consider cutting but not identical, which is implied (outside mathematics) by similar.

  Done. Ceoil (talk) 21:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• All of the embossed eyes are wide and round yet closely-set and seem to stare at the viewer: this isn't quite grammatical. Easy fix first: the hyphen in closely-set needs to go (MOS:HYPHEN): we only hyphenate compounds when they're used in apposition with a noun (his close-set eyes), and the Wikipedia MoS doesn't hyphenate those with -ly verbs in any case. We also have a bit of a garden-path sentence here. Suggest either bracketing (yet closely set) or, probably better, taking a breath: yet closely-set, and they seem to stare at the viewer.
• Archaeologists disagree on whether it: restate the subject in a new paragraph.

  Done. Ceoil (talk) 21:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• The hole under its base suggests it may have been intended to be placed on top of a pedestal, likely on a tenon (a joint connecting two pieces of material): the "likely" is a bit misleading here, since the two parts are totally linked: if there was no tenon, the hole would have no relevance to whether it would be on top of a pedestal. Suggest something like The hole in its base suggests that it may have been intended to be connected via a tenon joint to the top of a pedestal. I think this would also remove the need for the long gloss on "tenon", which becomes obvious in context.
• Most surviving iconic—that is, representational as opposed to abstract—prehistoric Irish sculptures: assuming that the date up to 100 CE is correct, would that be considered "prehistoric" in Ireland? It certainly wouldn't in Great Britain. Struck per Sawyer777 below, though perhaps it's worth a note to clarify that chronological boundary, as it goes so much later than it does in most other areas of European history? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 17:36, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• Other tricephalic and bicephalic idols include the "Lustymore" figure in Caldragh Cemetery: is it still there?
• In addition, the late-19th-century tendency to associate objects with a mythical or a late-19th-century Celtic Revival viewpoint: I'm not totally sure what this means, if I'm honest.

  lol. Removed. Ceoil (talk) 21:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• The archaeological evidence indicates that Corleck Hill ... was once known as "the pulse of Ireland": this surely comes from literary evidence rather than archaeological?

  Yes and changed. Ceoil (talk) 21:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• "drawn away ... [revealing] a cruciform shaped chamber ... the stones from the mound were used to build a dwelling house nearby, known locally as Corleck Ghost House.": this is quite a long quotation. Any reason not to paraphrase it? If nothing else, we could thereby remove the tautology of cruciform shaped (which should be hyphenated anyway).

Yikes; paraphrased. Ceoil (talk) 21:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• a small contemporary spherical stone head from the nearby townlands of Corravilla, and the Corraghy Heads, also in the National Museum of Ireland.: given that the elements in this list are quite lengthy, a serial comma as indicated would be helpful. As we've already mentioned the Corraghy Heads, perhaps better not to gloss/introduce them here.
• The number 'three' seems: from what I can see on Google Books, the overwhelming form is simply the number three seems.

  Done. Ceoil (talk) 21:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Triple-"mother-goddesses" : I don't think we want the first hyphen here, and probably not the second either. Hyphenating into quote marks is a bit of an odd look.

  Done. Ceoil (talk) 21:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Genii Cuucullati: This is Latin, so should be in a lang template. Can we translate it too?

  Its in Gaulish derived from Latin (maybe from 'genii loci but that's outside scope. Not sure we have a template for Gauilsh. Ceoil (talk) 21:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Is it not the other way around -- a Latin term that's got a Gaulish one hammered into it? Genii is a pretty distinctively/uniquely Latin word, and the morphology/inflection of Cuucullati (specifically, the -ati, "having-been-verbed" suffix) is definitely Latinate rather than Celtic. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  The Hooded Spirits article says "The name CucuIlātus is a derivative of Gaulish cucullos, meaning 'hood' (cf. bardo-cucullus 'bard's hood'), whose etymology remains uncertain. Cucullos is the source of Latin cucullus and Old French cogole (via the Latin feminine form cuculla; cf. modern cagoule). The Old Irish cochaIl ('monk's hood'), Cornish cugol, Breton cougoul, and Welsh kwcwIl are loanwords from Latin."

  I don't want to go too deep into this here, so have simplified the image caption as Early 3rd century AD depiction of the Hooded Spirits. Housesteads Roman Fort, Northumberland, England. Ceoil (talk) 21:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Works well. Incidentally, I read that as saying it's a Latin derivative, just like chivalrous is a derivative of the French chevalier, but is an English word rather than a French one. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:31, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• as with the Boa Island figures: we haven't actually introduced these. Are they the same as (or a superset of) the Lustymore figure mentioned further up?
• From surviving artefacts, it can be assumed that both multi-headed (as with the Boa Island figures and the Corraghy Heads) or multi-faced idols were a common part of their iconography and represented all-knowing and all-seeing gods, symbolising the unity of the past, present and future, or in cosmological terms, the upper-world, the underworld and the middle-world.: this may not be your problem, per se, but there are two claims here, and one is much easier to wear than the other. I can accept "these objects were common" as an inference from "we find loads of these things", but I need a bit more convincing as to how we can tell anything about omniscient gods or a tripartite view of the cosmos.
• The hole at the Corleck Head's base indicates that it was periodically attached to a larger structure: isn't this what we said earlier about a tenon, only now we seem to have promoted it to a certainty from being a conjecture the last time around?

  Clarified. Ceoil (talk) 21:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Three-headed altar thought to depict the god Lugus, found Reims, France in 1852: in Reims, surely? Comma after France per MOS:GEOCOMMA.

  Done. Ceoil (talk) 21:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Early 3rd century AD depiction of the Genii Cucullati.: needs an italicising lang template. This caption itself needs a full stop at the end, as it has one in the middle. The Boa Island one, however, needs its full stop removed.
• The modern consensus, as articulated by Ross: I don't think we can really hold up a 60-year-old source as "the modern consensus". If someone else has endorsed Ross as still representing the communis opinio, fine, but we need to cite them as well.

  Source from 2013 added, but Ross' view is generally accepted. Ceoil (talk) 21:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Classical Greek and Roman sources mention that Celtic peoples practised headhunting and used the severed heads of their enemies as war trophies: I mean, yes, but they have all sorts of reasons for doing so -- the same sources mention that the Nile once flowed from west to east and that the Ethiopians value iron above gold. I think we need to be a bit more sophisticated here: we can still use this information, but we need to be alert to the sort of evidence we're actually dealing with, and the idea that this might not be a face-value factual observation.
• that is Celts living in Great Britain and Ireland: comma after is.

  Done. Ceoil (talk) 21:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Medieval Irish legends tell of severed heads coming back to life when they are placed on standing stones or pillars: unless the legends say that all heads do this, I would cut they are to make clear that we mean specific heads.

  Done. Ceoil (talk) 21:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• While the Roman and Insular accounts: what accounts are these? We haven't talked about Roman accounts yet (I assume you mean Caesar/Tacitus here?), and the only Insular narratives we've mentioned are mythical traditions, which are generally too fluid for the label "accounts".

obviously this isn't my FAC, but re assuming that the date up to 100 CE is correct, would that be considered "prehistoric" in Ireland? It certainly wouldn't in Great Britain. - yes, the prehistoric period in Ireland is typically considered to last until the arrival of Christianity, and therefore literacy, in the 4th-5th centuries. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 17:01, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah -- very helpful, thank you. I've struck and amended accordingly. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 17:36, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi UC, excellent points, have them sized up re-sources but will take about a week to address all. The main problem is that there is no parent article for the group (Celtic stone heads), so the article is doing a lot of heavy lifting re context. Your comments are all on point, bear with me. Ceoil (talk) 00:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

sawyer777

i've also already reviewed this at the PR, and said i'd support it at FAC once it got here. i stand by that; the prose & sourcing on this article is excellent (indeed i spot a couple of my textbooks). i've given it another look-over and have nothing new to contribute. i'll keep up with this FAC though in case anything comes up. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 14:23, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

thanks for your help and support over the last few months. Ceoil (talk) 15:21, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

caeciliusinhorto

Some prose nitpicks. I also did some hopefully uncontentious fixes myself in these edits.

• "The three faces may represent an all-knowing, all-seeing god representing the unity of the past, present and future or ancestral mother figures representing strength and fertility": is there a way of rewriting this sentence so as not to say "represent" quite so many times in close proximity?
• "Archaeologists do not believe it was intended as a prominent element of a larger structure ... This suggests that the larger structure may have represented a phallus" seems self-contradictory. Was it or was it not an element of a larger structure? (Or is the point that it was part of a larger structure but not a prominent part, in which case that is not at all clear currently?)
• "on Corleck Hill in townland of Drumeague": I would expect "in the townland" here: is the omission of the article intentional? I know some varieties of English omit the definite article in some contexts where Br.Eng. speakers include it...
• The second paragraph on §Discovery has three mentions of "Barron", but his full name and the link to his article is only given in the following section.
• "only a small number three-faces": I would expect either "three-faced" or "have three faces" here.
• "only around eight known prehistoric Nordic stone heads have been identified": are both "known" and "have been identified" necessary here? It seems to me they are giving the same information and you can cut "known".
• 'Strabo wrote that heads of noble enemies were embalmed in cedar oil and exhibited to strangers"': unmatched quotation mark. Either the opening one is missing or this can be deleted.

Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 14:42, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Caeciliusinhorto, all now addressed. Ceoil (talk) 15:19, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Jens

Very interesting.

• Although its origin cannot be known for certain, – I would say "never say never". Wouldn't "although its origin is not known for certain" be sufficient?
• a major religious centre during the late Iron Age that was a major site of celebration – no need to have "major" twice, I think.
• As with any stone artefact, its dating and cultural significance are difficult to establish. – I don't think that's true. As with the first issue, this is an absolute statement and I am sure there are exceptions. "As with many stone artefacts" maybe?
• They all have a broad and flat wedge-shaped nose and a thin, narrow, slit mouth. – "both" instead of "all"?
• One has heavy eyebrows; another has – "the other", as there are only two?
• is extremely difficult – do we loose anything if we remove "extremely" here?
• It may be not clear to readers what precisely "modern period" means; you should at least link it.
• More later. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 00:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Hi Jens, done to here except using "both", as there are three faces. Ceoil (talk) 20:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Re: "As with many stone artefacts"....have found a source that goes into deeper discussion on the basis for the dating; will add shortly. Ceoil (talk) 11:30, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• The head was found c. 1855 in the townland of Drumeague in County Cavan, Ireland, during the excavation of a large passage grave dated to c. 2500 BC. – This is stated as a non-controversial fact in the lead but has a "probable" in the body.
• a mostly lost and stylistically very different janiform sculpture – but when the human head survives, then "mostly lost" seems like an overstatement?
• as are sculptures of the hooded figues know as – "known"
• and would, in the words of Ross: "tie them to the necks – maybe a , instead of a : flows better here?
• I was wondering about the article structure. It seems that this article starts with the specifics on the head first, and then provides the background information and context later. Usually, we write Wikipedia articles the other way around? I am not sure if this is necessarily bad in this case though. However, I'm a bit concerned that the last section "Head cult" does not seem to have direct relevance to the Corleck Head, and the head is never mentioned there. Ending an article with a section that is not really about the topic makes me wonder if there could be some better structure. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 23:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Jens, done until the last point, which I agree with. Have done some restructuring overall as suggested, but would like to weave the Corleck head into the head cult sect as suggested, as sources mention it as a major (Irish) example of the artefact type. Ceoil (talk) 22:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Suggest adding alt text

• File:JanusandLustymoreFigures_(cropped).jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:10, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Have swapped out the image. Ceoil (talk) 20:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

SC

Comments to follow. - SchroCat (talk) 06:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

• "As with many stone artefact" -> "As with many stone artefacts"
• "or ancestral mother figures symbolise strength and fertility": "symbolising"? I don't think the grammar works otherwise
• "today, it is on permanent display": I think "today" is verboten by the MOS, which would prefer "As at 2024" or similar
  • • MOS:ART also discourages "on permanent display", as things rarely are. Johnbod (talk) 17:07, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
      • Has been reworded as "It has been in the collection of the National Museum of Ireland in Dublin since 1937, where it is usually on display". Ceoil (talk) 21:16, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
• "Boa Island. County Fermanagh": that should be a comma, I think
• "Age;[43][44] and was" -> "Age;[43][44] it was" or "Age,[43][44] and was" ('and' should only really go after a semi colon in a list, it replaces the coordinating conjunction when joining two sentences).
• Corleck hill was a major site: Capital 'h' on Hill?
• "Insular Celtic": I think this could do with a quick explanation of what it is, even if in a footnote; it's not a readily understandable term, even from the context. If not, then a piped link to Insular Celts, although this seems to focus only on the British and Irish celts and ignores the European ones
  • • That's exactly the point of "Insular" - their relationship to Continental "Celts" is the subject of much controversy. Insular art is also available for linking. Johnbod (talk) 17:07, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

That's my lot – an interesting article. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:20, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Schro, all done for the last point as mentioned above. Ceoil (talk) 21:16, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

OK I still think you need something to explain what is meant in the context of this article by "Insular Celtic": it pops out of nowhere and people unfamiliar with the concept will be completely confused by it. I'll add my support to the nom, but I do think something is needed to clarify this point to, say, a Californian, Cameroonian or Canadian who reads this when it's a TFA and has no idea what is meant by the term. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:17, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Have added a note to explain. Ceoil (talk) 17:08, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Johnbod

• Looking good, after the PR. I may wait a while for changes after other comments above. Johnbod (talk) 19:52, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Older nominations

Socompa

Nominator(s): Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:56, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

This article is about a volcano along the border of Argentina and Chile, which has been noted for the giant landslide that removed part of the structure six thousand years ago, the occurrence of fumaroles with mosses and a neighbouring important pass between the two countries. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:56, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support, based on my (unofficial) PR. - SchroCat (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments Support from Graham Beards

I have taken the liberty of making a few edits to the article rather than list suggestions here. I have a problem with this phrase: "The collapse removed about 70° (about 9 kilometres (5.6 mi) of circumference and 7.5 kilometres (4.7 mi) of radius[45]) of Socompa's circumference on its northwestern side". It's the "of radius of..circumference" that is confusing me. Is it just me? Graham Beards (talk) 17:17, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I am trying to say that the landslide took out part of the volcano, like you'd cut off a slice of cake or pizza, equivalent to 70° of the circumference. The 9km refers to the width of the slice and 7.5km to its length. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:33, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps you could just say what volume of the volcano was lost as a percentage (on the volcano's northwestern side). Graham Beards (talk) 16:49, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that this can simply be computed. Is there an alternative way to formulate the slice bit? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

The problem is circumference is not measured in degrees. Why not just say "a 70° sector"? It's simpler and much easier to understand. Graham Beards (talk) 11:18, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Did an edit, is it better now? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I can live with that. I am happy to add my support now. Graham Beards (talk) 11:45, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

HF

• Is there nothing that topographical dominance could be linked to in that footnote? Having a redlink for a not well-known geological term is not useful for reader understanding.

  This is User:MAXIMOKAUSCH's addition, and I'm afraid it means no more to me than to you. Unfortunately, I don't even know where to begin when looking for sources on mountaineering terminology. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

In my view "with a topographical dominance of 12.08%" should be removed. I don't see how it is helpful to a reader. In fact, given the improbability of the source being considered high quality, I would remove the whole foot note. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:55, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Removed it in the interim. Regarding andes-specialists, it seems to be the page of Maximo Kausch and his team. They have been referenced by other sources for climbing exploits in the Andes and elsewhere ... does this make 'em a subject matter experts and therefore RS? I don't think this kind of information is usually discussed outside of circles concerned with mountaineering records. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:23, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• "The occurrence of the large landslide at Mount St. Helens probably aided in the subsequent identification of the Socompa deposit as a landslide remnant" - can I please get the underlying quote from the source for this?

  Here you go. It's an image PDF so I can't quote it. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not a huge fan of "probably" here. This appears to be making guesses about what the authors of the study used in their rationales. They do indicate that the Mount St. Helens incident factored into their conclusions as a comparison, but I don't think the current phrasing really approaches this the best. Hog Farm _Talk 21:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  This source says "The eruption of Mount St. Helens on 18 May 1980, focused attention on the importance in the evolution of large composite volcanoes of catastrophic collapse events and the rockslide/debris avalanches that result. Since 1980, several previously unknown major debris avalanche deposits have been described " and some examples would that work? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  I'm still not a huge fan of "probably", which is pretty close in my view to a minor form of OR where we're guessing the not directly-stated methodology of a source. I think this can be rephrased to something using these two sources indicating that the knowledge learned from the Mount St. Helens incident contributed to the recognition of such structures as what they were. Hog Farm _Talk 16:21, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  Oy. From the same source: "Recognition of the deposits as those of a major debris avalanche took place only in the wake of the collapse of Mount St. Helens in I980 which drew attention to what had hitherto been a poorly understood phenomenon. " that seems to be clearer. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• It is stated in the lead that it was once thought this was a nuee ardende deposit, but that term is not used at any point in the article body

  Changed. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• "the name "Negros de Aras" was given to the deposit before it was known that it had been formed by a landslide" - it is unclear what the significance is. I'm assuming Negros de Aras has some meaning that would be unusual for a landslide deposit given the context, but it's unclear what this is signifying.

  That's not clear even from the source. I've rewritten this. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Why does the infobox say the easiest approach is "glacier/snow" when it is stated in the article that there are no glaciers on Socompa?

  Some volcanoes here have snow but no glaciers. But since it's not sourceable, I've taken it out. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• What makes Andes Specialists a high-quality RS? This looks like some sort of commercial mountaineering site

  Took it and peaklist out. What's the preferred style for citing Google Maps? 'cause that might be sufficient to cite the geolocation. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  I'm personally of the opinion that simple, obvious, and unambiguous coordinates can be considered to be self-sourcing. Hog Farm _Talk 21:42, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  OK, then I'll leave them in their current (after the edit) state. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "Jorge González (2011). Historia del Montañismo Argentino." and "Federico Reichert (1967). En la cima de las montañas y de la vida." - both of these are incomplete citations. The publishers are needed, as are page numbers

  Took it out entirely, since I can't verify anything there. And asked on WP:RX to see if someone has access. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• The body of the article is treating the 5250 BP date as preferable, which the infobox is treating the 5250 BCE date as preferable

  Rewritten in the text. This is one case where a source apparently misread another. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I think that's it from me. Hog Farm _Talk 21:21, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Captions need editing for grammar

  Done, I think? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• File:El_Negrillar.jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Swapped, but apparently that URL isn't meant to be the source link anymore. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:59, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Hurricanehink

Support. I figured I'd review since I have an FAC of my own.

Lead

• Since you link Bolivia in the lead, maybe also link Argentina and Chile? I get why you didn't, since you linked them in the infobox. And speaking of, what about linking Central Volcanic Zone in the lead?

  Hmm, CVZ at this moment is still a redirect to Andean Volcanic Belt which is the preceding link. Granted, it's a redirect that could be expanded to an article in the future. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "about 44 active volcanoes" - I gotta ask, why is "about" used here when 44 isn't a number rounded to a nearest 5 or 10? I'm guessing you mean something like "an estimated 44 active volcanoes", since there's probably a good guess for the number, but it's not precise?

  So, the source says 44 but a few more volcanoes have been discovered since then. Would "more than 40" work better? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• I like the stuff about the collapse 7,200 years ago in the lead. I just feel that the second sentence is too long, and that it's out of order. The part about the collapse being "among the largest known with a volume of 19.2 cubic kilometres (4.6 cu mi) " - that's all interesting and good stuff, and I think should be before the Mt. St. Helens bit personally, but either way, the lead could be improved here.

  Rearranged a bit. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "Notable are the large toreva blocks which were left behind within the collapse crater." - the "notable are" construction is difficult to understand for non-English readers, or even people who don't have a great sense of English. Could you dumb this down a bit and make the sentence structure a bit easier? "The collapsed crater left behind large toreva blocks", or something.

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "Socompa is also noteworthy for the high-altitude biotic communities that are bound to fumaroles on the mountain and form well above the regular vegetation in the region." - again, cool stuff, but could you split this into two sentences so you could expand on this a bit? That would make the 3rd paragraph feel a bit more complete.

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Geography and geomorphology

• "due east of Monturaqui" - wish you mentioned that this was an impact crater, that's cool shit

  'fraid that the source refers to the railway station with that name, not the crater which is north of Socompa and much farther away. I've rewritten this. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "The mountain is considered to be an apu by the local population, and Inca constructions have been reported either from its slopes[10][11] or from its summit." - any Simpsons fan with ADHD is going to click on the link to figure out what an apu is. I'd add the explanation for what it is. Also, the second part "Inca constructions" feels like a completely different thought.

  Well, the Inca constructions exist because of the mountain's status as apu, and there isn't much detail in the sources about these constructions, so putting it elsewhere would leave it pretty stubby. A sourceable definition of "apu" is hard to come by. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "5,600 to 5,800 metres (18,400–19,000 ft)" - is there a reason you use a different construction for metric versus imperial? You could do "to" or the dash for both of them.

  No, changed this. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Is there a reason you don't abbreviate to km at a certain point?

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "The existence of a lake in the summit area within the scarps at an elevation of 5,300 metres (17,400 ft) has been reported." - is there a lake or not? I'm not sure why the "has been reported" is needed. Also, is that "Laguna Socompa? If so, the parts about the lake should be together.

  No, Laguna Socompa is at the foot of the volcano. "has been reported" because many other sources don't mention its existence. It might be ephemeral or somesuch. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "On the northeastern flank a pumice deposit is clearly visible." - not to someone who's reading the Wikipedia article. Is "clearly visible" the best description?

  Rewritten. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "The collapse removed a 70° sector (about 9 kilometres (5.6 mi) of circumference and 7.5 kilometres (4.7 mi) of radius[42]) on Socompa's northwestern side, descended over a vertical distance of about 3,000 metres (9,800 ft) and spread over distances of over 40 kilometres (25 mi),[25] at a modelled speed of c. 100 metres per second (220 mph)." - awesome stuff, but that's a lot for one sentence.

  Split it. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "The occurrence of the large landslide at Mount St. Helens probably aided in the subsequent identification of the Socompa deposit as a landslide remnant." - "probably"?

  Already under discussion in Hog's section. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• under the weight of the volcano these layers can deform and "flow" outward from the edifice - why the quotation marks?

  It's a very slow type of flow, akin to glass or rock deforming over time. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "petajoules " - should link to "Joule"

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "A 200-kilometre (120 mi) long lineament known as the Socompa Lineament is associated with the volcano." - I don't know what this means unless I click on "lineament"

  Clarified this a bit. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "In addition, directly north-northwest of Socompa lie three anticlines probably formed under the influence of the mass of both Socompa and Pajonales: The Loma del Inca, Loma Alta and La Flexura." - similar here, no idea what it means unless I click on "anticlines"

  Footnoted. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "The fumaroles on Socompa also feature stands of bryophytes such as liverworts and mosses[e] as well as lichens and algae, and animals have been found in the stands.[102][103] These stands" - wait what are "stands"? There's not even a link here.

  In the sense of "grove"; how does one say groups of mosses. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "After the sector collapse 7,200 years ago, activity continued filling the collapse scar. The explosion craters on the summit are the youngest volcanic landforms on Socompa,[6] one dome in the scar has been dated to 5,910 ± 430 years ago.[112] An eruption 7,220 ± 100 years before present produced the El Túnel pyroclastic deposit on the western side of Socompa.[113] The youngest eruption was dated to have occurred 5,250 BCE." - consistency with dating would be nice. The last one "youngest eruption" would've been 7,250 years ago, which would be before the sector collapse by... 50 years? Or potentially the cause of the collapse, right?

  I've recast this whole thing. GVP hasn't updated yet. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "In 2011, the Chilean mining company Escondida Mining was considering building a geothermal power plant on Socompa to supply energy;[125] the Argentine Servicio Geológico Minero agency started exploration work in January 2018 for geothermal power production." - I was curious what's happened since. this says that the work completed in 2020, with an estimate for how much power could be created. That's from 2023.

  Doesn't seem like it amounted to much, going by recent sources. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

All in all a good read. Pretty easy to follow, just a few spots I recommend including a bit of basic words instead of forcing the reader to rely on links. That's the main recurring theme I noticed. Lemme know if you have any questions. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:38, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for all of the fixes/replies, happy to support. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:05, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Volcanoguy

Introduction

• "Socompa has a large debris avalanche formed 7,200 years ago when most of the northwestern slope collapsed into an extensive deposit." Maybe "Most of the northwestern slope of Socompa collapsed catastrophically 7,200 years ago to form an extensive debris avalanche deposit."?

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "The Socompa collapse is among the largest known with a volume of 19.2 cubic kilometres (4.6 cu mi)". I assume you mean one of the largest known collapses on land. Much much larger collapses have taken place on the slopes of submarine volcanoes (see volcanic landslide).

  Aye, but the source apparently doesn't know about the submarine ones. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  Then it's a false claim that would be better off removed. Volcanoguy 14:37, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  Found a different source that does know the claims, so I added that one. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Geography and geomorphology

• "Many of these systems are in remote regions and thus are poorly studied" I think "systems" should be clarified here.

  It's only a way to not repeat "volcanoes". Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  I don't see the problem in reusing "volcanoes" here since most people probably won't know what "systems" means. Volcanoguy 19:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  OK, changed this. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:39, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• "Several dacitic lava flows form the summit area of the volcano, the youngest of which originates in a summit dome." Should "the youngest of which originates in a summit dome" instead be "the youngest of which originates from a summit dome"?

  Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• "On the southern and eastern side the scarp is 5 kilometres (3.1 mi) long and 200–400 metres (660–1,310 ft) high, while the southern side is about 9 kilometres (5.6 mi) long." This sentence doesn't make much sentence since the southern side is mentioned twice with differing measurements.

  Rewritten. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

That's all I have to comment on. Volcanoguy 21:45, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Support. Volcanoguy 19:43, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments

I get the feeling the nomintor in areas doest fully understand the sources; apart from typical not first language issues there seems to be a wood from the trees issue. The statement "not witnessed in historical records" about an event that occurred 7,200 years ago gives pause, as does the fact that the dating is so low in the lead, and in the lead the geography is confusing. And the focus on measurements and all the overcitation is confusing and missing the point. However, I do respect this nominator's work, and hope they can meet these general points. Have been making trivial edits and enjoying this facinating article very much otherwise. Ceoil (talk) 16:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I know that arguing examples isn't normally the right way to go about this, but I don't think that we can assume people know that events 7,200 years ago have no historical records left b/c historical records don't go that far back. And the "activity" - unlike the collapse - has only been dated recently. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, a collapse and an eruption are definitively not the same thing. I get the point about the (over)use of "collapse", though. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:06, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Jo Jo, hopeful and confident this will get over the line, and I well know the dept of research that wnt into this. I'll better articulate prose issues in a few days. As I say, the article is fascinating, and am very happy it has been brought to such a standard. Its also very impressive the expertise of the reviews above. I'm just stalling for now. Ceoil (talk) 18:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Ceoil, please check your spelling before publishing your changes; I've had to correct some of your typos. Volcanoguy 18:54, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Thats fair. Will post here only re rewording before my eventual support. Ceoil (talk) 23:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Labyrinth (Taylor Swift song)

Nominator(s): Ippantekina (talk) 07:38, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

This article is about a song by Taylor Swift, arguably the biggest pop star right now. She has loads of chart-topping hits, but this one, "Labyrinth", is not one of them. It's a lesser-known entry in her oeuvre, but it knocked me sideways after maybe the 4th or 5th listen and now ranks among my favorite Swift songs. For a song article, I believe this is well-researched, comprehensive, and well-written. I'm open to any and all comments :) Ippantekina (talk) 07:38, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Ceoil

Placeholder. From a scan last night and read through today, the article is very well written and the music and production is well and informativly described. The article is appropriately concise, and the sourcing seems fine. Leaning support. Ceoil (talk) 15:24, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

As an update, will be supporting this article as per above once the reception section flows better; it seems very jumbled atm, tying to gather thoughts to articulate concerns (and making light edits). For one thing there are way too many slight quotes (eg "airy") that could be paraphrased. Ceoil (talk) 12:31, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Ceoil, I'm looking for ways to improve the flow of the "Critical reception" section. Ippantekina (talk) 03:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Ceoil: how does the section read now? Ippantekina (talk) 09:12, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Ceoil, do you fancy relooking at Reception? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Looking better; much tighter. One thing am confused about is most of the first para in the sections seems to be about the production of the music, while the third is about the fx layered on the vocals...yet the quotes in the 3rd para seem to go back to praising the sound again, not the vocals. Ceoil (talk) 20:55, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Media is appropriately justified, but are there any images that could be added? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:06, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm thinking of adding a photo of Swift performing on the Eras Tour, but it might not be directly related to prose.. Ippantekina (talk) 04:48, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Heartfox

• In the infobox one studio is given as Brooklyn and another New York City, but aren't these the same place?

• I'm assuming NYC = Manhattan in this case, but I'd keep the places as they are printed on the liner notes. Ippantekina (talk) 05:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• ""Labyrinth" peaked at number 12 on the Billboard Global 200" → "Billboard Global 200 singles chart" would help clarify for readers unfamiliar with this term

• Done. Ippantekina (talk) 05:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• "In the Associated Press" → Maybe "For" or a rewording would work better as Associated Press doesn't feel like something written "in" like a newspaper or magazine

• Done. Ippantekina (talk) 05:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• I would try to paraphrase more quotes in the critical reception section

• Did some polishing. Ippantekina (talk) 05:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Best, Heartfox (talk) 02:38, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, Heartfox. I've replied above, let me know if there are any outstanding concerns :) Ippantekina (talk) 05:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Support. If you are interested, I do have a current FAC open. Heartfox (talk) 19:47, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Pagtatag!

Nominator(s): – Relayed (t • c) 18:04, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

This article is about the second extended play by SB19 released back in 2023, which spawned their hit single, "Gento", which sparked a TikTok trend. I previously worked with the "Gento" article last year and was promoted to FA, and I'm here to get its parent project to get to FA as well. I already attempted to get Pagtatag! promoted last June 2024 but was unsuccessful due to prose issues. I think the article has had substantial improvements since the previous nomination, and I do think this article has the potential of becoming one of the featured content here on Wikipedia.

This is part of my ongoing efforts to improve SB19's coverage here on Wikipedia. Once promoted, it will be the first Filipino album to attain such status (and could be a little cool milestone as SB19 reaches their 6th anniversary). Feel free to leave any constructive criticism, feedback, and suggestions; thank you, reviewers, in advance who will take their time and effort here. – Relayed (t • c) 18:04, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments by NØ

Given how much I enjoyed "Gento", I am excited to review this soon!--NØ 09:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi, MaranoFan! Nice to see you here again! I'm looking forward to your review. – Relayed (t • c) 09:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

• I think you could split "released by Sony Music Philippines on June 9, 2023." into its own sentence as it doesn't work as good as a run-on in the current sentence.

  Split I noticed that that's the convention you're going for in most of your FAs; I did receive a comment last time to make it a run-on, but we'll see how it goes.

• The 2020 debut album's name should be written out in the prose.

  Done

• "Development on Pagtatag! began in 2022" - Should this maybe be "development of"?

  Done

• Apologies if I am missing something, but where is the fact that "Gento" received critical acclaim sourced in the article? Also, the claim that it achieved commercial success seems to not be repeated in the article body and just the chart positions are. Whereas, this type of claim would require a reference to a secondary source.
  • About the “Gento” receiving critical acclaim, that’s supposed to be a summary of how critics liked the catchiness of the song (mentioned in the “Music and lyrics” section), as well as some other comments in the “Critical reception” section. Should I tone down the wording in the lead?
  • Added Regarding the commercial success of the lead single, I have added a source mentioning that the single was a commercial success, hope that’ll suffice.
• "Pagtatag! has been featured on 2023 year-end rankings and nominated for Album of the Year at the 2024 Awit Awards" - Why "has been" instead of "was" when 2023 is over?

  Replaced

• "They were able to release three singles" - "were able to release" seems unnecessary to me, maybe "released"?

  Rephrased

• Other than two Nase (brothers?), I am counting three additional producers on Pagsibol, so the claim that they "worked with several record producers" seems excessive and I would recommend "worked with a few other record producers" or something to that effect.

  Rephrased Yep, they are indeed siblings.

• "and that, in it, they would continue to explore different genres and life experiences" - "in it" could be removed

  Removed

• Two samples for a six-track EP seems to be pushing WP:NFCC#3 a bit. Do you have a preference between these when it comes to conveying the EP's sound, and could the other one be removed?

  "I Want You" sample removed I understand. The thing with Pagtatag! is that one half of the EP sounds sonically different from the other half, so it’s hard to illustrate the EP with only one track sample (at least for me). However, I previously received a comment that "Liham" has a stronger rationale for inclusion in the article than "I Want You", so I removed the latter.

• "Critics were fond of its lyricism" - maybe "praised its lyricism"?

  Rephrased

• "The local press considered the release a significant one" - Admittedly, it is quite a bold claim that the local press thought so, when it only seems to be supported by the Bulatlat review. Which are the other ones?

  Looking back at it, yeah I agree. Toned down the sentence since I couldn't find another source to support that; would that suffice?

• "Pagtatag! was nominated for the Album of the Year at the 2024 Awit Awards" - Don't think "the" is required. Also, if this ceremony has already happened I would suggest more clearly making the sentence about it in the lead past tense too.

  Removed the ceremony has yet to happen, but I will update once that’s done

• Awards and nominations for songs are not included in the awards table of their parent album/EP

  Removed

• Do you think the EP could go into Category:Hip hop EPs, Category:Soul EPs, and Category:Contemporary R&B EPs since these genres are included in the infobox? Also, I believe Contemporary R&B is usually used instead of Rhythm and blues in articles for modern releases like this.

  Added That’s actually a good idea! And links for R&B have been changed to Contemporary R&B.

Those would be all the comments from me. Based on my reading, I find the article to be a strong contender for FA status so it is quite the mystery why the nomination hasn't attracted that much attention, lol. Anyways, I hope you enjoyed the review!--NØ 07:42, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks for the comments, MaranoFan. I will be looking over at them soon. And yeah, unfortunately, that's the case at the moment, but hopefully, this can get more traction sooner, not later. – Relayed (t • c) 08:36, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi, MaranoFan! I have finished going over your comments, and I think I have addressed everything on the latest revision (see difference here). I have also responded to some of your points above. Let me know if everything has been sorted to your liking or you have anything else. – Relayed (t • c) 06:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support - Impeccable work. Hopefully my review has been able to help push the article towards a well-deserved gold star. If you are able to, I am currently seeking a third prose review on my current FAC.--NØ 13:37, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for the support, MaranoFan! Your review is indeed a great help. I'll try to have a look at your latest nom within the week; I would say "Feather" is one of my low-key favorites off her discography. – Relayed (t • c) 14:34, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

750h

lead

No problems here.

background and development

no problems here.

music and lyrics

no problems here.

release and promotion

• that trended on the video sharing service TikTok add a hyphen between "video" and "sharing"

critical reception

• this paragraph's pretty big, i'd split into two. I don't really mind though. 750h+ 08:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

accoldates

no problems here.

Overall this article is near-perfect; excellent work on it, @Relayed:. 750h+ 08:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

750h+, Relayed: I did the hyphen between "video" and "sharing".

I think the Critical Reception paragraph is indeed bulky, but if we split the paragraph to two, we need to rework the section again (transitioning the paragraphs and their ideas to not make it look like a broken bulky paragraph). So, for me, I'll keep it. RFNirmala (talk) 02:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Support. 750h+ 02:44, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for not responding early. Thanks for taking care of the minor edit, RFNirmala! I'll attempt to split the "Critical reception" into two paragraphs since I also notice that it's quite lengthy. Other than that, thank you for supporting, 750h+! – Relayed (t • c) 15:40, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Heartfox

• "The EP incorporates musical styles including pop, EDM, hip hop, soul, and R&B—all co-written by the band's leader, Pablo—as part of the band's desire to explore genres since their departure from the dance-pop music in their debut album, Get in the Zone (2020)." → This is a lot for one sentence. I think "musical styles such as" would work better. "all co-written" → right now it reads as the "musical styles" are co-written, but this doesn't make sense.
• " trilogy, of which Pagsibol (2021) was the first" → "trilogy that began with Pagsibol (2021)" reads nicer
• "identity strengthening" → quotations in lead require citation per MOS:LEADCITE
• "its songs explored" → its song explore
• "but one considered that the EP ended weakly" → this reads awkwardly and it seems like undue weight to include the critic of one person in the lead
• "which has a set list including all the songs from the EP" → do we really need the tour set list in the album's article lead? It is a given that songs from a tour named after an album would be performed on it.
• "2023 year-end rankings" → rankings of what (best album, worst album?)
• The first paragraph of the background and development section has no references that mention the subject of this article. I question how an entire paragraph (which is a lot more than an explanatory sentence, or footnote or something) like this meets WP:PROPORTION. I am not really a fan of this policy as I feel it has been misinterpreted by other editors in other fields, but there still needs to be some evidence that secondary sources have established a relationship between the background information and the article subject so we do not enter into original research by creating narratives, otherwise it may be more suitable to leave most of this information in the SB19 article.
• "It would be the band's first release to have complete control of, from its development leading up to its release, to which they responded happily:" → reads awkwardly
• suggest linking Tagalog and Cebuano
• what is the purpose of the "Liham" audio sample in the second paragraph when it isn't mentioned in adjacent text?
• "SB19 put the EP together as a collection of songs discerning the boy band's identity, disregarding the trends, standards, and demographic preferences in the music industry" → Is this intention coming from the group or is the statement actually supported by a secondary source?
• "went for a shared creative process in which sounds and music genres the group wanted to include in the record" → I don't understand this phrase
• "Critics praised its lyricism, finding it catchy and interesting", ""Critics find that the band's vocals well suited to the genre"" → I wouldn't put this level of critical reception in a music and lyrics section, it feels out of place.
• "adrenaline-activat[ing]" → quotes need citation directly after given that there are 3 refs at end of sentence and unclear which supports the quote
• "vocally-belted bridge" → "vocally-belted" reads weird. Links next to each other is MOS:SEAOFBLUE. 4 commas in one sentence is too much.
• "whose expressed love" → who has expressed love?
• "which was a" → and was a
• "two Billboard record charts" → sea of blue
• "were accompanied by music videos that were released to" → too much passive voice
• "was grunge-themed" → is grunge-themed
• "the Our Zone fifth-anniversary fan meeting" → unclear what this is
• "kicked off" → "began" is less informal
• "was met with" → received
• "Few critics considered the release a significant one; Rafael Bautista of Nylon Manila regarded the gap since Pagsibol was worth the wait, while Bulatlat's Janness Ann Ellao finds the release proof that the "P-pop movement only seems to grow" → there are some grammar issues here which maybe make it difficult to understand what this is trying to say
• "Critics also complimented the band's vocals and the EP's theme" → not really seeing this in the next sentence
• "Many critics reacted positively with the band exploring" → Many critics reacted positively to the band exploring
• "A separate review published by Billboard Philippines described it as a "great EP", complimenting its songwriting, particularly how the songs feature multilinguistic lyrics, including Cebuano, which they opined added "a new dimension" to the group." → this is very wordy and hard to read. There's too much ideas in one sentence. "described it as a "great EP", complimenting its songwriting" can be cut.
• "However", "Nonetheless" → WP:WTW
• "applauding its quality, songwriting, and cultural impact" → this needs to be rephrased outside of wikivoice
• "where several of the EP's songs also helped SB19 to get nominated for 15 other awards" → this feels informal

I would have to lean oppose right now sorry. Overall it is strong and I think it can become FA in the future, but I have to agree with the reviewer in the previous FAC that for the most part "Often, unnecessary extra words are used, and it lacks clarity; meaning is sometimes difficult to discern", "The prose is unclear, grammatically inconsistent, and overly wordy." Heartfox (talk) 06:37, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Heartfox. Thanks a lot for the in-depth review of the article. In the meantime, I'll attempt to address the concerns you've raised. – Relayed (t • c) 06:58, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Virgo interferometer

Nominator(s): Thuiop (talk) 21:51, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

This article is about one of the major current gravitational wave detectors. This is the second nomination; during the first one, the article was found lacking in copy editing, so I submitted a request to WP:GOCER, which was completed a few days ago, hence the resubmission. Looking forward to your comments. Thuiop (talk) 21:51, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

@Thuiop, have you considered persuing Good article nomination first? It's not technically required for featured articles to be successfully nominated as good articles first, but it is almost always done and is strongly recommended—especially given that this is your first nomination. Good articles have less strict criteria, and a one-on-one dialog is often more efficient to identify and correct certain common problems, compared to the FAC process. Remsense ‥ 论 21:59, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Remsense, I was not aware of that. I did know about Good articles though, but considered it as a second option; I usually contribute to the French Wikipedia, where "FAC" are usually not already "GA" before the nomination. If you think this is a better idea, I am ok with rescinding this nomination and go to GA before. Thuiop (talk) 08:00, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I would recommend it, but keep in mind that it sometimes takes a prolonged period of time before an editor will pick up your submission for review—often days or weeks, sometimes even months. I think this one wouldn't sit too long though. Remsense ‥ 论 08:48, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok. I will do this if there are no other comment against this idea in the next one or two days. Thanks! Thuiop (talk) 08:55, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Graham Beards

I don't think a GA nomination is needed. I have made some edits to the article, which can be found in the history. The images look a little cluttered, at least on my screens, but this is no big deal. In my view this is an excellent, and fairly lay-friendly, introduction to an exciting new field in cosmology. I am interested in what other reviewers have to say, but I am happy to add my tentative support. Graham Beards (talk) 10:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Airship

I have placed {{cn}} tags in a few places; note that image captions do require citations if the information within is not sourced elsewhere in the body. In my opinion, the prose is good but in need of improvement; I cannot comment on the technical and scientific details. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:14, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I added the missing citations. Thuiop (talk) 12:19, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• How does the gallery here align with WP:GALLERY?

• File:Logo-virgo.png: source link is dead. Ditto File:GW170814.png

• File:GW170814_signal.png: where is this licensing coming from? The source site has an all rights reserved notice

• File:Virgo3_1.jpg: is a more specific source available? Ditto File:BestVirgoSensitivityCurveVSR4.png

• File:VirgoDetectionBench2015.jpg is tagged as lacking source information. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Indeed, it seems it does not. Do you think it would make sense to move it at the beginning of the instrument section, replacing the already present File:Virgo aerial view 01.jpg ?
• Fixed.
• I added the original paper which is indeed under CC.
• I added extra sources in the caption. Did you mean to add the sources in Commons? These files were directly uploaded by the collaboration, but I can link articles where they were used, although those articles are not necessarily under the correct license.
• Fixed.

Thanks for the comments! Thuiop (talk) 11:43, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• The Commons page for each image should include sourcing that confirms that the image is available under the licensing given. Do you mean that the licensing given is not correct, or that the articles where they are used don't credit them properly? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:32, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  Ah, no, I meant that these two files were produced by the Virgo collaboration and upload by someone from the collaboration in its name, falling under the "own work" category. It was also used by the collaboration in other places (including a journal paper), but these do not fall under the same licence as far as I know. If you think this is important, I can contact the person who uploaded it and have them confirm this officially. Thuiop (talk) 07:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Yes please - this should go through VRT. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:25, 29 October 2024 (UTC)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Contents

  Understood, I will get this done in the next few days. Thuiop (talk) 12:45, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Took care of it ! Thuiop (talk) 13:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Coordinator comment

Three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next four or five days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:53, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

HF

I'll try to start a review within the next day or two. Please ping me if I haven't started by Wednesday. Hog Farm _Talk 16:17, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

@Hog Farm here is the reminder. Thanks for your interest! Thuiop (talk) 08:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

My work schedule has gotten crazy this week - I am hoping to get to this Friday or Saturday. Hog Farm _Talk 12:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie

• "The Virgo interferometer operates with similar detectors ...": it took me a few seconds to parse this. I took "similar" to mean "similar to detectors mentioned earlier". I understood the point by the end of the paragraph, but how about changing this to "The Virgo interferometer shares data with other similar detectors, including ..."?

  I see what you mean. However, the point was also that observations are jointly planned with other detectors. I modified the formulation to make it clearer and still reflect that.

• "Developed when gravitational waves were only a prediction of general relativity, it has now detected several of them. Its first detection was in 2017 (together with the two LIGO detectors)" This doesn't make it clear that the Virgo was not involved in the first such detection. Could we rephrase, maybe like so: "Gravitational waves, once only a prediction of general relativity, were first detected by the LIGO interferometers in 2015. The first event detected by Virgo as well as LIGO was in 2017; this was quickly followed by ..."?

  This is the only one I did not address yet; I wanted to also make clear that the instrument was developed at a time were no GW had been detected, and operated for a long time before the first detection. Your reformulation, although technically correct, makes it look like Virgo "came late to the party". I will try to think of a better formulation, perhaps extending what is in the parentheses in the current version.

• "The Virgo Collaboration consolidates all the researchers": suggest "consists of" as simpler.

  Done.

• "which gathers scientists from the other major gravitational-waves experiments to jointly analyze the data; this is crucial for gravitational-wave detection": the source doesn't say that this collaboration is crucial for gravitational-wave detection -- I think it's a point worth making but we need another source that says it.

  Done.

• "Many believed at the time that this was not possible; only France and Italy began work on the project, which was first presented in 1987." It's not really clear what "this was not possible" refers to -- I think it must be the detection of low-frequencies, but it might mean, more specifically, that using an interferometer to detect low frequencies was considered impossible.

  Indeed, I made that more explicit.

• And "which was first presented" is vague: if I understand the source, "proposed" would be clearer.

  Done.

• "Virgo's first goal was to directly observe gravitational waves, of which the three-decade study of the binary pulsar 1913+16 presented indirect evidence." Meaning that the first goal was to observe these specific waves? The first part of the sentence reads oddly because detecting these waves is Virgo's only goal. To avoid that reading, how about "Virgo's first goal was to directly observe gravitational waves from the binary pulsar 1913+16, for which there was indirect evidence from three decades of study"?

  Maybe this was confusing; the goal was not to observe those in particular, rather it was somewhat clear at the time that they existed, but not whether it was feasible to detect them. I changed it to make that clearer.

• The article says both that initial Virgo "reached its expected sensitivity" and that "the original Virgo detector was not sensitive enough". Are these two statements are in conflict? The project did not intend to build an instrument that was not sensitive enough. If these aren't in conflict, then presumably that means the designed sensitivity turned out to be insufficient; if so I think we should say so.

  Your last sentence is correct. I removed the "not sensitive enough" part, to instead say that there were no observations.

• The first mention of "mirror towers" had me going down to the "Instrument" section to understand what these were, and I think it might be better to reverse the order of "History" and "Instrument". Putting the instrument description first gives the reader the vocabulary to understand the history section. That would also avoid issues such as saying "The new mirrors were larger (350 mm in diameter, with a weight of 40 kg)" when we don't know how big the old mirrors were.

  I did that, but I am actually now wondering whether this was a good idea, since the Instrument section also mentions the initial and Advanced Virgo periods.

• There's a mixture of tenses in the second paragraph of "Advanced Virgo detector": past tense ("the new mirrors were larger"); present tense ("The optical elements ... are under vacuum"); and subjunctive ("A system of adaptive optics would be installed"). I suggest sticking with past tense throughout.

  Done.

• "In the original plan, the laser power was expected to reach 200 W in its final configuration." Is this phrasing because we don't have a source that gives the laser power as built? Does "final configuration" refer to advanced Virgo, or does "original" mean this is a spec from initial Virgo?

  I left it like this; it is indeed complicated to source the exact laser power, as it was expected to ramp up and has changed many times throughout the detector's life.

• You introduce the abbreviation "aLIGO" and then don't use it anywhere. I think it can be dropped, but what is the difference between LIGO and aLIGO? Is it something the reader needs to understand?

  The abbreviation itself is not really useful indeed, but there was an important point, which is that the LIGO detectors also had their "Advanced LIGO" program. I reflected that.

• "during the O2 observation period": this is not explained until further below. I think an overview of the observational program, as outlined in the box, would be helpful to give the reader the O1, O2, ... vocabulary and some context, before we give the results of the runs. From the box it's not clear that O1 even applies to Virgo, in which case perhaps it's terminology from the LVK collaboration rather than just Virgo? If so I think we should say so. And looking at sentences like "Virgo announced that it would not join the beginning of O4" I see that must be right. I assume this planning of collaborative observations is in order to have the data to cross-check or reinforce the interpretation of detection events? That's implied but not stated.

  This is LVK terminology, I added a phrase to explain that.

• The post-O3 upgrades have an understandable difficulty with tenses since some are in the past and some in the future. I think the present tense ("the first precedes the O4 run") is not a good choice, though; the paragraph is written without making it clear what's been done and what remains to do, and I think doing that, with past tense and then future tense, would read more naturally.

  Good idea, I did that.

That takes me down to the end of the history section. I'll pause there, since I've suggested moving sections around; let me know what you think and I can continue when these points are resolved. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:20, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments! I have addressed most of them, and will put individual answers to make it easier to read. Thuiop (talk) 12:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that makes it much easier to see what's addressed and what isn't. I've struck most points above; I will read through again, though probably not tonight, and bear in mind what you say about the reversal of the sections perhaps causing other issues. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:17, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Hurricanehink

Seeing as I have an active FAC, I figured I'd review another science article here.

• "The Virgo interferometer is a large Michelson interferometer designed to detect the gravitational waves predicted by general relativity. " - this is a lot for the first sentence, and I'm still not even sure what it is. I clicked on "Michelson interferometer" and it linked to "Interferometry", and I'm already on a bit of a wikihole. Is there a way to make the first sentence even simpler? I realize there's a link on Michelson interferometer, and Michelson stellar interferometer, and I think they're both similar. Also, the part of "predicted by general relativity" seems more like a description of gravitational waves. Mostly, could you expand on this and be broader?

I am not sure how it could be simplified without omitting the interferometric part, which is in my opinion pretty important. Regarding the link, I think that Interferometry is a bit clearer but it could go to Michelson interferometer to avoid surprise (Michelson stellar interferometer is however unrelated). The "general relativity" does apply to gravitational waves but it does not seem too out of place to me, although I am fine if you wish to remove it.

• "three kilometres" - please convert this and all units to imperial in parenthesis.

Will do.

• "The instrument has two arms that are three kilometres long and contain its mirrors and instrumentation in an ultra-high vacuum." - is there any more about the instrument? This is the only sentence in the lead about the actual device itself. All I know is that it's 3 kilometres long. But unfortunately, that's not sourced anywhere.

I can add more details but I think this would be more confusing than anything if you are not familiar with how the instrument works. For the source, I can add one but this is an extremely basic fact which you can find in basically every source from the article.

• Should the infobox list the "formation" as 1993 if it was completed in 2003?

Interesting question, I think 1993 is fine since it is the start of the project. I was also thinking about having a small "timeline", but unfortunately this infobox template does not allow for one.

• Could there be more about the history in the lead?

Hm, sure. I will whip up something but let me know if there are specific elements you want to see.

• " including the two LIGO interferometers in the United States (at the Hanford Site and in Livingston, Louisiana) " - I'm not sure, but I don't see the Livingston part cited anywhere in the article. I wanted to a random spotcheck, and I didn't see the Hanford part even mentioned at all in the article other than an image caption.

Again, I can add a source but this is very basic information about the LIGO detectors which you would find anywhere LIGO is mentioned.

• Where is the budget that's in the infobox sourced in the article? "About ten million euros per year"

Good catch, I added a reference. I think the information is only in the infobox currently but could be introduced in the text if needed.

• Is there a reason the "Organization" section is first? It wasn't formed til 2000, but since it was started before then, it seems like "Instrument" or "History" would make more sense being first.

The reason for this is what "the Virgo Collaboration" and "the LVK Collaboration" are constantly referred to in the sources, and also in a few places in the article, and I wanted these terms to be defined from the start to make sure it is less confusing. Also see the comments from Mike over the order of Instrument and History.

I've only gotten through the lead and a little bit of the article, but there are some pretty big problems just in the lead. I'll wait to hear back from you before continuing my review, thanks. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:20, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments! I added individual answers to each of them. I have been meaning to check out other FAC but have been pretty busy with work these past weeks, I will try to see if I can drop a few comments on yours in the next few days. Thuiop (talk) 09:07, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

The Suicide of Rachel Foster

Nominator(s): PanagiotisZois (talk) 23:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

This article is about a video game that proved somewhat controversial upon its release due to tackling taboo subjects like suicide and pedophilia. A game in the vein of Firewatch and Gone Home, The Suicide of Rachel Foster is a walking simulator where players navigate the eery Shining-esque hotel owned by the player character Nicole's family. There, Nicole hopes to uncover the true nature of 16-year-old Rachel's suicide, who seemingly killed herself after the community found out about her "affair" with Nicole's father and ensuing pregnancy. Unsurprisingly, the game's depiction of pedophilia and suicide were some of the topics most-discussed by journalists. Outside of the more sensationalistic aspects, the game's setting and characters were well-received, but the story and gameplay proved less interesting to reviewers.

Image review by Nikkimaria

• Suggest adding alt text
  • I've added alt text to both images, though I can never be sure if it's an adequate description or not.
• File:The_Suicide_of_Rachel_Foster_-_Gameplay.jpg needs a stronger, more unique FUR - at the moment it's almost identical to the lead image. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:03, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
  • I changed the template that is used and also the fair-use rationale.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 10:25, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Support from BP!

I'll get back to it as soon as possible. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 05:50, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• Be consistent with whether or not the citations use title case for the titles. Make sure to italicize game titles in the citation titles per MOS:CONFORMTITLE. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 10:33, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

  Done. Unless I missed something, I've made sure to italicize references to the game (and other games/films) in titles, as well as capitalizing all words except words like "if". PanagiotisZois (talk) 14:32, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

  After reading it again, I will Support this article for promotion. Though, I'll admit that I didn't like that piece from Screen Rant at all. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 01:08, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you! I guess I shouldn't be surprised you wouldn't like the Screen Rant source; still remember Ada's FAC. I did check the reliable sources list, and Screen Rant is considered appropriate when discussing entertainment-related pages, such as this. However, if someone else raises concerns about it, I could remove it. Admittedly, it's not used much as is.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 12:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Fair enough 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 13:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Support from Crisco

I've had this on my backlog for ages. Will review.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 09:40, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

• the abuse between Leonard and Rachel - Implies that Rachel was also abusive of Leonard, which seems incongruous with what's been presented so far. Perhaps "Leonard's abuse of Rachel"?
  • Honestly, that's one of the hardest parts of this video game. How something is versus how the game depicts it as. Although Leonard groomed Rachel and their relationship is pedophilic, the game never really calls their relationship for what it is. Should the word "abuse" be changed to "relationship", or something else?--PanagiotisZois (talk) 12:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
    • Relationship does seem to be the more neutral term.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 12:16, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

      Understandable. It is also how the game frames it as. Made the appropriate changes. PanagiotisZois (talk) 12:33, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

      Thanks. Give me a shout when you're done the below, and I'll revisit.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 15:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

• such as child sexual abuse and suicide, to portray them with sensitivity. - Not sure the comma is correct
  • Removed.
• Three sentences in a row start with variations of "it" in the third paragraph of the lede. Worth reshuffling?
  • Changed.
• Nicole's attempts to do so anyway, but is unable to do so, angering her. - Do so ... do so
  • Given that this part isn't all that significant to the plot, I just removed the sentence.
• Rachel might still be alive, collecting various clues - Is Rachel collecting clues, or is Nicole?
  • Clarified that it's Nicole collecting clues.
• Irving is Rachel's younger brother and in their abusive household, only his sister brought him joy. - Perhaps "Irving is Rachel's younger brother, and she was the only one who brought him joy and in their abusive household."?
  • Made a few changes; hopefully for the better.
• The game was developed by the Italian studio One-O-One Games using Unreal Engine 4 and published by Daedalic Entertainment.[6][7] The game was directed by Daniele Azara and its music was composed by Federico Landini. - Repetition
  • Changed.
• From the beginning of the game's development, the studio wanted the narrative and gameplay to complement one another, rather than finishing the story first and then choosing an appropriate gameplay style. - Perhaps "Rather than finish the story first and then choosing an appropriate gameplay style, from the beginning of the game's development the studio wanted the narrative and gameplay to complement one another."? Feels a bit more logical in flow.
• being set in an enclosed space to increase the claustrophobia. - The hotel itself wasn't in an enclosed space. Perhaps "being replete with enclosed spaces"?
• the Overlook Hotel, featured in Stanley Kubrick's The Shining (1980) - Perhaps "as featured"? That better distinguishes the Overlook from the one in the novel or the television series.
• Two "according to"s at the beginning of the Reception section
• handling of suicide, especially regarding Nicole's suicide attempt at the end, - Worth recasting to avoid double mentions of suicide?
  • Reworked the sentence and expanded on what Bell had to say about the subject.

Overall, very tight.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 10:08, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@Crisco 1492: Thank you. :) I believe I've made most of the necessary changes, though I've also changed a few things a bit, so I'm not sure if said changes also need revision.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 20:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

• Looks good. Happy to support! — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:29, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for your comments. :D PanagiotisZois (talk) 15:59, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Source review from Aoba47 (pass)

For clarification, I am using this version of the article for my source review. My comments are below:

• Have you looked through to see if there was any academic coverage on this game by using tools like Google Scholar? I have found some potential sources here, but for some of them, you would need to go through the Wikipedia Library to access them: A Review of Indie Games for Serious Mental Health Game Design, Narrative Space in Videogames, and Using Indie Games to Inform Serious Mental Health Games Design. These are all conference papers so I am unsure how that works for Wikipedia, but they were published by Springer Publishing, which is a notable publishing company. It may be worthwhile to look into this type of coverage further.
  • Good idea. I'll be looking into it.
    • Take as much time as you need, and let me know if there is anything that I can do to help you with this part. Aoba47 (talk) 16:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
      • I looked into all three sources. I went through both sources talking about Nicole's attempted suicide. Admittedly, I didn't read in-depth every thing these two chapters said, but I believe I pinpointed the most important details; as with other critics, they didn't like the ending. The third book source is about the Timberline. Although I do for the most part understand what it's trying to say, it's a bit too theoretical for my taste and focuses on something that never really interested me when analyzing texts; the geometry/geography of physical spaces. It also has A LOT to say about the Timberline, so I'm not sure how I could even consense all of that. Even the other book sources talking about Nicole's suicide still came out to almost 8 whole lines.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 19:57, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
        • Thank you for the response. I understand that it can be difficult to incorporate academic sources into a Wikipedia article. I think that the final paragraph in the "Critical response" section could be condensed. I am not sure that the serious game classification or the Actual Sunlight comparisons are particularly useful, and I believe it would be better to focus on the discussions regarding the critique that the game uses suicide for shock value. I would think this could folded into the paragraph directly above it, which already focuses on the game's handling of suicide.
          • All right, I've condensed it. I think its size is more appropriate now, and the section fits better with the paragraph about suicide.
        • The Narrative Space in Videogames article is primarily saying that the hotel is set in such a way to intentionally confuse the player and their connection to the story and characters. It might fit in the second paragraph of the "Critical response" section as that is already about the hotel, but since it is more of an analysis than a review, it may not work out that well. I will leave that up to you. Aoba47 (talk) 21:55, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
• The citations for the most part list both the website/work and the publisher, but there are some spots where only one is listed, such as Citation 6 including only the website (The Washington Post) and Citation 13 including only the website (JeuxOnline). I do not think it is necessary to include both, particularly for well known citations such as Metacritic, but it is important to be consistent.
  • I just wanted to add a reminder that this part has not been addressed yet. Aoba47 (talk) 21:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
    • @Aoba47: Regarding the Unreal Engine, Nintendo, Italian Video Game Awards, and DStars sources, I'm not quite sure how else to cite them. In the case of the first one, I could label "Unreal Engine" as the website and "Epic Games" as the publisher, but I'm not sure if that's right either.
      • I think that the question then becomes how useful is it to have both the website/work and publisher if they cannot be applied consistently throughout the citations. It may just be me, but I am not sure how useful it is for readers to have the publisher for citations like Bloody Disgusting or Metacritic, but I looked at recent FAs on video games, such as Islanders (video game), which has a similiar inconsistency, but was passed as a FA without issue so I think that this is just a matter of personal preference so it will no longer be an issue. Aoba47 (talk) 14:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• I would be consistent on whether title case is used for the citation titles or not as there are some instances, such as Citation 30, where it is not being used.
  • Oops. This point was raised a few days ago by Boneless Pizza. I made sure to use title case everywhere, but didn't add the source for the sequel until later, and in my excitement I forgot to use the title case.
    • That is understandable. I was only made aware of the title case stuff relatively recently, and I completely understand getting caught up in the moment when you find something new. I would not have expected a sequel for this game, and I am curious on how it will turn out. Aoba47 (talk) 16:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
• Citation 9 is no longer active and currently redirects to a spam website. The archive link also leads to an error screen. I also cannot open Citation 25 as it leads to an error screen (at least for me), but the archive link does work for me.
  • Regarding Citation 9, the archive page actually works just fine for me. However, since you also mention further down that this is one source that's unreliable, I decided to remove it altogether. It's unreliability was actually raised by IceWelder during the GAN, so I kinda expected that I'd have to remove it. I guess I was just waiting for someone to say so.
  • Regarding Citation 25, on my end it actually said that it's a malicious website (probably from my antivirus program) so I removed that as well. Besides, the second source I used there already shows that Rachel Foster got nominated but lost.
    • Thank you for the responses to both. I am glad that you were able to have a citation that would cover the second part. Aoba47 (talk) 16:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
• I partially relied on the WP:VG/RS to judge the reliability and appropriateness of the sources. I am not as familiar with the non-English sources so could you please explain how/why the following would be appropriate for a FA? To be clear, I am not saying that they should be removed, but I wanted some more insight on these: L'Ambidextre, Nikoofar Music, and ProSieben Games.
  • Regarding Nikoofar Music, I explain more above why I removed it. Having checked L'Ambidextre out again, it seems to be a blog, so not all that reliable. As for ProSieben Games, I'll admit I don't really have any information about this specific site and how reliable or not it is. I do know that ProSieben itself is a news channel, and from the little I do know, ProSieben is considered reputable.
    • Thank you for addressing this for me. I agree with your rationale for the ProSieban source. I noticed that you did remove Graziano Pimpolari as the game's artist, but I think that you could cite this information directly to the game's credits, where they are listed as the art director and user interface artists. I have used credits for this kind of thing for Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Wrath of the Darkhul King without any issue, and it may be helpful to use so more key information is included in the article. Aoba47 (talk) 16:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
• This is not part of the source review, but I would re-examine short sections, specifically the "Accolades" subsection and the "Sequel" section. The accolades could be folded into the general reception section, and until more information on the sequel comes out, I do not think a one-sentence section is necessary.
  • I can definitely place the "Accolade" subsection into the "Critical response" one and just remove both subsections. However, how could the "Sequel" section be placed somewhere else. Could we "in good faith" leave it there under the assumption more information will come out in the coming months about it?--PanagiotisZois (talk) 08:41, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
    • That's fair. As I said above, this falls outside of the scope of a source review so I will leave this up to reviewers who are looking at the prose. I can understand your perspective on it. Aoba47 (talk) 16:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
      • It seems like the "Accolades" subsection has been put back into the article. I will not dwell on it as again, it is outside of the scope of my source review, but I just do not think that this particular structure is the best approach. Aoba47 (talk) 21:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

These are my comments for now. Either tomorrow or later in the week, I will do a spot check to make sure that things said in the article are supported in the citations and to make sure the information in the citation structure (i.e. authors, publication date) are accurate. I hope that this review is helpful, and please let me know if you have any questions. Best of luck with this FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 00:16, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

For clarification, I am looking at this version for this set of comments:

• For this sentence, (Players take control of Nicole as she explores the Timberline Hotel), Citation 2 does not use the name of the hotel. This is nitpick-y as Citation 2 does talk about the family hotel, but I would add Citation 3 here as well just to support the actual hotel name.
  • Done
• It may be helpful to include examples of the puzzles in the prose. For instance, Citation 3 lists "hunting for a screwdriver or a generator switch" as examples of the "very light environmental puzzle" in the game. Citation 18 mentions using the flash from the polaroid camera as way to navigate during a blackout. Citation 4 talks about a map feature that may be useful to bring up in the article. I am mostly just bringing some gameplay areas that could be expanded with the sources already in the article.
• For Citation 11, I think it would be more beneficial to use the interview citation template instead.
  • I think I did that correctly.
    • Looks good to me. Aoba47 (talk) 14:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• I did a spot-check and the authors, publication dates, etc. match between the sources and the citations.
• I am uncertain about using quotes from non-English sources. Examples are "central to the horror experience" and "religious population and legal framework that offered a plausible setting for the narrative of psychological horror and moral taboo [the developers] were making", which are both tied to Citation 11. However, neither are really direct quotes, and are translated versions of these quotes. I think it may be best to paraphrase in this context, and I would double-check the article for other instances of this type of quote.
  • @Aoba47: I might be wrong, but I checked the non-English sources used in this article, and none of them exist in the article with quotations. Citation 11 does come from a French website, but the article itself was actually presented in English. I think there was also a French-language version of the same interview, but the one cited here is the English-language one.
    • Apologies for that. That is what I get for doing a review later at night when I am tired. Aoba47 (talk) 15:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• This is outside of the scope of a source review, but I would avoid the "with X verb-ing" sentence construction when possible as it is something that is often pointed out and discouraged in FACs. I do not have a particularly strong opinion on it, but I still thought it was worth drawing your attention to it. An example of this would be (with Nicole and Irving's relationship and voice actors also being commended) in the lead.

Thank you for your patience with my review. I believe that should be everything, but once everything has been addressed, I will double-check through everything just to make sure that I have not missed anything. I hope you are having a great week so far. Aoba47 (talk) 21:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for addressing everything, and apologies again for my mistake with the JeuxOnline source. Everything looks good to me in regards to the sources. They are reliable and appropriate for a potential video game FA, support the information provided in the article, and are formatted correctly. This passes my source review. I hope that this was helpful, and thank you again for your patience. Aoba47 (talk) 14:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to do a source review. And for going above and beyond to not do just that, but also give me suggestions on how to enlarge and improve the article's content. And also informing me that those academic sources could be accessed through the Wikipedia Library. PanagiotisZois (talk) 15:58, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words. I am just glad that I could help. Aoba47 (talk) 22:25, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Hi Aoba47. This is the nominator's first run at FAC, so it also needs a source to text integrity check and a plagiarism check. Would you consider your sour source review to also have appropriately have covered them? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 00:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for the ping. Apologies for not clarifying this in my above review. I am not that experienced in source reviews if I am being honest. I have done a source to text integrity check, and I did not notice any issues. I also did a plagiarism check, and for the most part, everything looks good to me, but I did find something.

  Looking through the article again, I did notice two instances in the article, ("affected by the tragedies surrounding" and "to encourage players to think critically about"), where the prose was taken directly from the source (i.e. Citation 12) and I believe both parts should be paraphrased. Apologies for not catching this during my review. Hopefully, both should be somewhat easy fixes. Thank you again for the ping. I greatly appreciate it. Aoba47 (talk) 01:46, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Aoba47: I have paraphrased both sections, though I'm not sure if the changes are necessarily good. PanagiotisZois (talk) 13:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for the response. I have done a small copy-edit to one of the parts, but feel free to revert it if you disagree with the change. It looks good to me. Aoba47 (talk) 16:40, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Joe

Forthcoming. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Joe, just a reminder. Gog the Mild (talk) 00:23, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I have some notes for a review. Posting sometime later today or early tomorrow. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 13:53, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

• I get that this is a fairly plot-heavy game, but I think the first paragraph of the lede should have some gameplay details. I think that's pretty important to cover when introducing a reader to a video game.
• Going off the previous point, I think the first paragraph is a little excessive on plot details. If I were you, I would reduce it. Here's my recommendation:
  • Original: The story follows Nicole Wilson in Lewis and Clark County, Montana, during December 1993 on a visit to her family's Timberline Hotel. Having left ten years prior with her mother following the revelation that her father Leonard was in a sexual relationship with the teenaged Rachel Foster, Nicole plans on quickly inspecting the Timberline and selling it. After being forced to stay there due to a heavy snowstorm starting after her arrival, Nicole's only contact with the outside world is a Federal Emergency Management Agency agent named Irving. With his help, Nicole decides to investigate the relationship between Leonard and Rachel, as well as her mysterious suicide.
  • Suggested revision: The story, set in December 1993, follows Nicole Wilson on a visit to her family's Timberline Hotel. Having left ten years prior with her mother after learning of her father Leonard's affair with the teenaged Rachel Foster, Nicole plans to quickly inspect the Timberline and sell it. She is forced to stay longer due to a heavy snowstorm, and decides to investigate Leonard and Rachel's relationship, as well as Rachel's mysterious suicide.

then dedicate a sentence or two to summarizing the gameplay.

• Here's a copyedit suggestion: hit Ctrl+F and search for "the game's" and "of the game". You will find that in 99.9% of all cases, you can cut them without losing anything. Examples:
  • "The game's narrative and gameplay were developed simultaneously to ensure that one would complement the other.
  • "The game's setting—the Timberline Hotel—was praised, as was the sound design for helping create an appropriate atmosphere."
  • "Joffard denounced the narrative for not being engaging enough, causing the player to become a spectator, as well as the game's ending and twists, finding them inconsistent with the rest of the game's story."
  • "The Windows version of the game was released on February 19, 2020."
  • "During the course of the game, Nicole will have to solve "very light environmental puzzles" to progress with the story, such as acquiring a screwdriver or finding a generator switch."
• In general, I think the prose could use a lot of tightening: I think you could be a bit more compact and straight to the point, and use the active voice as much as possible. I'll reproduce the second lede paragraph:
  • In developing The Suicide of Rachel Foster, One-O-One Games aimed to create a horror game that emphasized suspense and fear instead of traditional monsters. The game's narrative and gameplay were developed simultaneously to ensure that one would complement the other. The game was created as a walking simulator to allow real-life topics to be explored, given the genre's emphasis on narrative. The Overlook Hotel from the 1980 film The Shining was used as inspiration for the Timberline's architecture. The developers sought professional advice for the game's depiction of topics such as child sexual abuse and suicide to portray them with sensitivity. The game was released in February 2020 for Windows and in September 2020 for PlayStation 4 and Xbox One; it was ported to the Nintendo Switch in October 2021.

Here's what I was able to cut it down to in just a few minutes:

One-O-One Games aimed to create a horror game that emphasized suspense and fear over traditional monsters, and developed the narrative and gameplay simultaneously to ensure they would complement each other. They designed The Suicide of Rachel Foster as a walking simulator to explore real-life topics, given the genre's emphasis on narrative, and the Overlook Hotel from the 1980 film The Shining served as inspiration for the Timberline. The developers sought professional advice for the depiction of topics such as child sexual abuse and suicide to portray them with sensitivity. Daedalic released The Suicide of Rachel Foster for Windows in February 2020, for PlayStation 4 and Xbox One in September 2020, and for Nintendo Switch in October 2021.

I've managed to reduce the word count substantially without removing any information or changing any meaning. I would take some scissors, go through the rest of the article, and see what you can trim. You'll be left with leaner, clearer, and more direct prose. I recommend the following essays if you need some additional assistance: WP:REDEX, WP:ELEVAR

• Will do a reference spotcheck sometime tomorrow.

I guess you could call this a light oppose for the moment; I think the research and structure's good, but the writing needs some cleanup before we're ready for the star. Ping me once you've gone through I'll give the article another read, and I'll make some minor tweaks myself if necessary. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 19:57, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestions! I agree that I can be more direct and concise. A problem I often struggle with; that and repeating words and/or information for some reason. I'll try to thoroughly go through the article and see how I can trim a few things or change others. PanagiotisZois (talk) 23:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@TheJoebro64: I've gone through the article again. I tried trimming down certain things, expanding a couple others, and reorganizing here and there. PanagiotisZois (talk) 13:53, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Sounds great, I'll take another look sometime tomorrow. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 14:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose from Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

• "The story, set in ..." What story? Maybe something like 'The game revolves around [is focused on/is centered around/or similar] a story, set in ...'
• "all the while capable of using a radio-telephone to". Optional: 'all the while able to use a radio-telephone to'.
• "to ensure they would complement each other." Maybe 'so they would complement each other'?
• "They designed The Suicide of Rachel Foster as a walking simulator to explore real-life topics". See MOS:NOFORCELINK: "Do use a link wherever appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links." I think "walking simulator" falls foul of this. Any chance of a brief in line explanation? And in the main article, where you could be a little more expansive if you wish.
• "and the Overlook Hotel from the 1980 film The Shining served as inspiration for the Timberline." Perhaps put this in a separate sentence? It doesn't seem to have any compelling link to the first half of the sentence.

Lead reviewed. More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• "FEMA". In full at first mention please. (Both in the lead and in the main article.
  • Done.
• Does Irving have a first name?
  • It's Crawford. Granted, given the reveal at the end that he's Rachel's brother and was only pretending to be a FEMA agent, it's possible his first and last name are both fake; Rachel's surname being Foster. But the game never acknowledges this, so...
• "very light environmental puzzles". The MoS on quotations: "[t]he source must be named in article text if the quotation is an opinion". Emphasis in original.
• "Throughout the game, Nicole acquires a ..." "throughout" is factually and/or grammatically incorrect. You mean "during', but have recently used it to start a sentence. Maybe delete "Throughout the game" altogether.
  • Replaced with "as the game progresses".
• "Repeated mentions of "Nicole". Replace one or two with 'she'.
  • Done.
• Having skimmed the "Plot section it seems to give too much detail. I would argue for a more summary style. I will leave reviewing this section until we reach a conclusion on this point and any agreed actions have been completed. I note that TheJoebro64 may be making a similar point. TJ64, is that right? Gog the Mild (talk) 22:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  I don't entirely disagree about the section's length. I do wish for JoeBro to leave a few more comments, but once that's done I will try and condense or remove a few things. PanagiotisZois (talk) 23:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Could you ping me once you are happy for me to formally review this section. Thanks. Moving on:

• "was designed as a walking simulator due to". "walking simulator" again.
• "The Suicide of Rachel Foster was designed as a walking simulator due to the genre's emphasis on narrative, allowing for the exploration of real-life topics". So, does the genre allow "for the exploration of real-life topics" or just this game? Why did "the genre's emphasis on narrative" cause the game to be "designed as a walking simulator"? Eg was it as a contrast, to fit in with consumers' expectations of the genre, both, something else?

• The developers specifically stated that: "As you can imagine we very much love this game genre [walking sims], since it places an incredible focus on narrative mechanics and is a great format to approach real-life subject matters in an interesting manner". It was the genre itself that allows for the exploration of real-life topics "in an interesting manner". Even more specifically, it is the "narrative mechanics" of this genre which allow for this exploration to take place. This being why the developers wanted to make a walking simulator.

Interesting; I still have no clue what a "walking simulator is and/or does. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

To be honest, I haven't really played all that many adventure games myself, but from my understanding, walking sims are adventure games that specifically focus on environmental exploration, having very little in the way of enemies, boss battles, etc. There's also less emphasis on the gameplay aspects, in a way, and much more focus on the story, the characters, and their relationships to one another. The setting and environment is a core component, as exploring said environment is what helps players piece the puzzle together and figure out the story. Should I add a note in the lede where I summarize what walking sims are? PanagiotisZois (talk) 21:53, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• "the game has over 100,000 words of dialogue." What has this to do with the earlier part of the sentence? Or is it just an interesting factoid?

• I guess it does come across a bit more as a fun tidbit. Admittedly, I'm not sure if many other games have such information somewhere in their articles. I can just remove; it won't affect the article much.

• "The hotel's design drew heavily from the Overlook Hotel, the main setting of Stanley Kubrick's The Shining (1980)." Why?

• I checked the source again, and ONE-O-ONE stated that by trying to make the Timberline look like the Overlook Hotel, they hoped that they could "plac[e] the player in an environment that would subconsciously trigger players to feel fear based on experience and expectation". I guess the indication here being that the Overlook and The Shining are both so famous (I've never seen the movie) that the developers knew if they made the setting resemble the movie, players would experience fear simply by association. PanagiotisZois (talk) 20:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• "and because the state has a "religious population and legal framework" which provided a "plausible setting for the narrative of psychological horror and moral taboo [they] were making"." Attribute in line per the MoS on quotations please.

• If I'm understanding this rule correct, I have to point out that this statements came from X source, right? Like "According to an interview with JeuxOnLine, the developers set...".--PanagiotisZois (talk) 20:04, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I am stopping here and I am afraid opposing. There is clearly a FA worthy article in there, but I don't think this is it - the amount of work being done or flagged up is beyond what is reasonable at FAC. It is a pity that it didn't attract more input at PR, and it would IMO benefit from both a visit to GoCE and the input of a FAC mentor. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

A FAC mentor seems like overkill, but I understand this candidacy could fail and how going through GoCE could be helpful. I do appreciate you taking the time to start a review and have a few questions. Firstly, would you mind if I addressed your comments up to the end of the "Setting and genre" subsection and asked for a few clarifications?

Of course not, including continuing off-Wiki if it comes to that.

Secondly, as you commented on "the amount of work being done or flagged up", are the lede and "Gameplay" sections up to FA standards?

Wrap up my comments, and anyone else's, for those two sections, let me know and I'll go through and give you my opinion. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

PanagiotisZois (talk) 17:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Hurricane Dennis

Nominator(s): ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:28, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

This article is about Hurricane Dennis, the first major hurricane to hit the United States during the busy 2005 Atlantic hurricane season (it would be one of four). Dennis used to be a featured article from 2006 to 2010. Over the years, Juliancolton (talk · contribs) created a number of sub-articles for Dennis involving the United States, and the article was close to being a featured topic, only the main article was extremely short (for a retired storm article). So following the merger of the sub-articles, plus additional content and copyediting, I now feel that the article is among the most thorough accounts of the hurricane. Hopefully I can address any of your concerns, should they arise. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:28, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Don't use fixed px size

• Some images are missing alt text

• File:Dennis_2005_path.png: formatting of the image description page appears to be broken - could you confirm what's meant to be appearing and not? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the image review Nikkimaria (talk · contribs). Zzzs (talk · contribs) helped fix the first two points. As for the third, I'm not sure if I understand correctly. The page for Dennis 205 path has the standard information that appears in every tropical cyclone track map, such as the fact that it's in the public domain, what the symbols mean, when it was made. Compare to other featured hurricane articles' track maps here and here. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:48, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I fixed that one too FYI. The code was broken by the standard file info format. That's all I'm going to be doing for this nomination. _ZZ^Z'S 16:20, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh sweet thanks for fixing that too. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:40, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Drive-by comments

• Comment: Just a drive-by, but I could not tell from the lead paragraph whether it briefly attained the record strength and held the record permanently, or whether it attained the record strength for its duration and held the record only briefly (or possibly both). An alternate option might be "...tropical cyclone that briefly became held the record for the strongest Atlantic hurricane ever to form before August"? Mrfoogles (talk) 18:28, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• The lead does have - "Six days later, Dennis's record intensity was surpassed by Hurricane Emily." That being said, I used your wording to tweak that first sentence. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

EG

I might be able to leave a few comments later. Feel free to ping me if I haven't left any comments by Friday. – Epicgenius (talk) 16:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Lead:

• Para 1: "Six days later, Dennis's record intensity was surpassed by Hurricane Emily." - This sentence seems like an outlier, given that the previous and next sentences both talk about Dennis. Should this be moved to the end of the paragraph and slightly reworded?

• I moved the bit about Emily to the end of the paragraph, changing it to ""While Dennis was still active as a tropical cyclone, it lost its status as the strongest hurricane before August to Hurricane Emily, which also moved through the Caribbean." What do you think? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• That sounds good to me. Epicgenius (talk) 20:44, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 2: "However, the storm only killed one person in Jamaica but resulted in over $34.5 million in damages." - To me, it sounds somewhat awkward to start a sentence with "However" and then also use the word "but" in the middle of the sentence. I would cut "however", since the word "only" already emphasizes the low death toll.

• Hmm, I removed the "however" "but" and "only", since they all carry a bit of weight. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 2: "Its agricultural industry was also affected" - Granma Province's, or Cuba's?

• Clarified the whole nation. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 3: "In neighboring Georgia, the storm killed one person due to drowning." - I'd personally go with something like "In neighboring Georgia, one person drowned due to the storm".

• Changed as suggested. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 3: "Dennis spawned ten tornadoes in the United States, all of them weak." - Could this be reworded to just "Dennis spawned ten weak tornadoes in the United States", or is there a reason for this specific wording?

• Not really actually, changed as suggested. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 4: "Dennis's passage led to the retirement of its name due to its effects" - Similarly, I'd say something like "Due to the extensive damage, the name "Dennis" was retired". "Effects" is vague; "extensive damage" is more clear.

• What about - "Due to the extensive damage, the World Meteorological Organization retired the name Dennis."

• I would try to put a bit more distance between these two links per WP:SEAOFBLUE. Otherwise, it looks good to me. Epicgenius (talk) 20:44, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• I reworeded it to be in passive voice, Epicgenius (talk · contribs). ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

  Sounds good. By the way, @FAC coordinators, please don't archive this nomination yet. I'm still working on my review and will have more comments on Thursday. – Epicgenius (talk) 23:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

More in a bit. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the feedback so far, Epicgenius (talk · contribs). ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

No problem. I'll have some more feedback tomorrow. – Epicgenius (talk) 20:42, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. Due to work and a concert that I was excited about, I forgot about this. I'll resume my review below.

Meteorological history:

• Para 1: "It later emerged over the Atlantic Ocean on June 29 and moved quickly to the west" - I might be missing something, but did it disappear and re-emerge, or did it travel over Africa for three days?

• It travelled over Africa for three days. I reordered it to make it clearer. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 1: "It then subsequently traversed" - The words "then" and "subsequently" are redundant to each other in this context.

• Yea, I just combined it with the previous sentence. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 2: The second paragraph contains several "howevers", which distracts from what is otherwise a well-written paragraph. I would consider replacing or removing some of them.

• Yea, I got rid of all but one, agreed. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Caribbean:

• Para 1: Is "centre national de météorologie" all-lowercase in its original language?

• I made it uppercase for consistency. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 4: "About 140,000 people were mobilizing to assist in preparations, including about 1,600 civil defense units" - Should this be "About 140,000 people mobilized"?

• Thank you, yes. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

More in a bit. – Epicgenius (talk) 23:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Preparations - United States:

• Para 1: "The NHC dropped all watches and warnings after Dennis moved inland" - I might be missing something, but why would the NHC drop these watches and warnings if the hurricane still posed a danger inland? Are these storm-surge watches/warnings?

• Great question! At the time, the NHC issued hurricane watches and warnings for coastlines, and local National Weather Service office picked up the types of warnings you'd expect (flood warning, thunderstorm warning, whatnot). There were no storm surge watches/warnings until 2017, and no inland hurricane warnings until this year. I did tweak the wording a bit to: "The NHC dropped all watches and warnings after Dennis weakened to tropical storm status as it moved inland." ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 1: "1.8 million people evacuated in the southeastern United States" - I'd go with "1.8 million people in the southeastern United States evacuated". Otherwise, it might sound like the people evacuated to the southeast US.
• Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Para 1: "The Red Cross put dozens of volunteers on standby to go into regions affected by the storm, opening 180 shelters along the gulf coast." - Isn't Gulf Coast capitalized?
• Hah I overcorrected, I changed two instances back to "Gulf Coast". ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Para 2: "Key West Mayor Jimmy Weekley ordered bars in the city to close during the storm." - I might also be missing something, but this seems like something that should happen during a hurricane. (On the other hand, it would be noteworthy if bars typically stayed open during hurricanes there, or if no other businesses were ordered to close).

• Does it feel trivial then? I can remove it if it feels out of place. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  To be honest, yeah, this does seem a bit trivial. I would recommend removing it since ordering businesses to close during a hurricane isn't really unusual. – Epicgenius (talk) 02:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  Removed. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Impact:

• Table: If the sources give differing amounts, would it be possible to include the ranges of damage estimates in the "Damage (USD)" column, rather than just a single damage estimate? For example, in the "Jamaica" row, the NOAA source gives an estimate of $31.7 million and the ODPEM source gives an estimate of $34.5 million. The table currently only mentions the latter figure, but the range of damage estimates is actually $31.7–34.5 million.

• I suppose we could do the damage range, but I opted for the higher damage total because ODPEM is an office from Jamaica, so I believe that total is more accurate. The NHC is more accurate when it comes to United States damage totals, but not always about other areas. Does that make sense? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, that makes sense to me. – Epicgenius (talk) 02:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Impact - Haiti:

• "Approximately 15,000 people were directly affected by the hurricane" - I think this might benefit from a little clarification, since anyone in the path of the hurricane is likely to be "directly affected" in some way. I assume that this wording means that 15,000 people were displaced or otherwise inconvenienced, if not injured or killed?

• Ugh, I think and debate whether to include this every single time I see the "affected". And it's probably some combination of people who evacuated, or had power outages, or were otherwise negatively affected by the storm. And since I don't know for sure, I removed that sentence. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Impact - Jamaica:

• Para 1: "most power outages were restored within six days" - Power, not power outages, was restored within six days. I know this wasn't your intention, but this wording makes it sound like they got power again, only to experience outages after six days. I'd go with something like "most power outages were resolved within six days".

• Yea I like that "resolved" wording! ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

More later. – Epicgenius (talk) 02:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Impact - Cuba:

• Para 1: "just before the eye passed over the area, and the anemometer was destroyed" - The comma is not strictly necessary if the anemometer was destroyed just before the eye passed over the area, which I assume is the case.

• Oh, yep, done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 1: "The hurricane dropped torrential rainfall" - Is it typical to say "dropped ... rainfall"? Usually I hear "caused ... rainfall".

• True, changed to "produced torrential rainfall." ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 2: "Dennis also damaged 360 schools in the province, including 29 were destroyed and in need to be rebuilt" - Not only is there a missing word (the word "that" is needed after "29"), but "in need to be" sounds a bit strange. I'd say "29 that were destroyed and needed to be rebuilt".

• Hmm, obviously if they were destroyed they needed to rebuilt, so I got rid of that last part and simplified. Thanks for pointing that out. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 2: "almost 27,000 hectares (67,000 acres) of agriculture land was destroyed" - Shouldn't this be "...land were destroyed" since "hectares" is plural?

• Eek, yup! ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 3: "power was halted nationwide, which began to be restored on July 11" - I'd say "power was halted nationwide and began to be restored on July 11". The power halts were not the thing that was being restored; it was the power that was being restored.

• Agreed! ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Impact - United States:

• Para 1: "Across southern Florida from Tampa southward to the Keys, Dennis left about 439,600 people without power, while another 322,275 people along the Florida panhandle lost power" - The sentence structure makes it sound like the panhandle is part of southern Florida, which it isn't. I think this should be recast as "Across southern Florida from Tampa southward to the Keys, Dennis left about 439,600 people without power, while across the Florida panhandle, another 322,275 people lost power".

• Done as suggested. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 2: "Damage in the Florida Keys totaled US$6.8 million, mostly related to roofing, electric, and landscaping" - There is probably a missing word after "electric". Is this talking about electrical service? Electrical equipment? Or just power in general?

• Added "equipment". ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 2: "for three years the navy ship was upside-down" - If the ship had been upside down for 3 years prior to Dennis, then this should be "for three years the navy ship had been upside-down".

• Appreciate your grammatical precision, yup! ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 3: "which struck southern Alabama ten months earlier" - This should be "which had struck...", to be parallel with the phrasing "were still recovering", which is used earlier in the sentence.

• (H)added. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Impact - Rest of the Gulf Coast:

• Para 1: "the USS Alabama in Mobile Bay" - The name "Alabama" should be italicized, as is conventional for names of ships.

• Thanks, got it. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 2: "Slick roads led to a traffic death in Jasper County.[105] Strong winds damaged a church in Calhoun County.[106]" - Both of these sentences are relatively short, and they should probably be combined, either with one another or with other sentences.

• I combined the church bit with the previous sentence. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Impact - Other areas:

• Para 1: "Within five days of Dennis's landfall, the structure was refloated and taken to Texas to be repaired, as the connecting pipes on the ocean floor were also repaired." - In the phrase "as the connecting pipes", I would change "as" to "and", because these two things just happened to take place at the same time, rather than this being a cause-and-effect relationship.

• Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• Para 2: "About 55,000 people statewide lost power in the Atlanta area" - "Statewide" might not be necessary here (as the Atlanta area is entirely in Georgia), unless some of these 55,000 people who lost power lived outside the Atlanta area.

• Eek, yep, removed. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

More later. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Coordinator note

This has been open for three weeks and has yet to pick up a support. Unless it attracts considerable movement towards a consensus to promote over the next four or five days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 00:16, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Yea, I totally get that, thanks Gog the Mild (talk · contribs). ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Generalissima

• Mark me down for a source review. Will try to get to it over the next couple days. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 23:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Battle of Big Black River Bridge

Nominator(s): Hog Farm _Talk 19:03, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

After Raymond, Grand Gulf, and Lake Providence, here comes the next article in my Vicksburg series. Loring's division of Pemberton's Confederate army had been cut off after the disastrous Battle of Champion Hill. Pemberton, not knowing that Loring had found himself unable to rejoin Pemberton, held the crossing of the Big Black River with John Bowen's elite but decimated division and John Vaughn's brigade of inexperienced conscripts of dubious loyalty. Michael Lawler's men used a dried-up river channel to draw closer to the Confederate lines, and when Lawler's men charge, they hit the part of the line held by Vaughn's conscripts. Vaughn's men don't put up much of a fight, Bowen's troops on the flanks are forced to retreat to avoid being cut off from the river crossing, and it takes about three minutes for the entire Confederate line to collapse. Over 1,700 Confederates are captured, and the Confederate lose their artillery because the horse teams needed to move the guns were left on the wrong side of the river. Pemberton falls back into the Vicksburg campaign and surrenders about a month and a half later. Hog Farm _Talk 19:03, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Don't use fixed px size
  • Removed px size hardcoding. Hog Farm _Talk 14:34, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
• Some images are missing alt text
  • Have attempted to add alt text. Hog Farm _Talk 14:34, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
• File:The_Battle_of_Big_Black_River_Bridge,_Harper's_Weekly,_June_20,_1863.jpg: source link is dead
  • This is a known (temporary) issue with the Internet Archive; I think the expectation is that this will be back online soon. Hog Farm _Talk 14:34, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
• File:Big_Black_River_Bridge_Battlefield_Mississippi.jpg: see MOS:COLOUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:45, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Removed image as I don't think this can be easily made compliant. Hog Farm _Talk 14:34, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Matarisvan

Hi Hog Farm, my comments:

• Why do we not have the casualties and losses in the infobox when we do have them in the lead and body? Also, are the strengths of the units before the battle known?
  • I haven't seen a good estimate of Union strength at the battle in any of the sources I have consulted for this. I don't know how relevant it is to post casualties when there's no strengths listed in the infobox for proportionality comparisons and the Confederate loss records are so incomplete. Hog Farm _Talk 13:25, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
• "Fewer than 300 Union soldiers became casualties": Sounds a little odd, consider rephrasing to "The Union army suffered less than 300 casualties"?
  • Done Hog Farm _Talk 18:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
• "capture" of New Orleans, Louisiana: Link "capture" to "Capture of New Orleans"?
  • Linked Hog Farm _Talk 18:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
• Consider linking to field of fire?
  • Linked Hog Farm _Talk 18:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
• "Osterhaus replaced by": "Osterhaus was replaced by"?
  • Corrected Hog Farm _Talk 18:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
• Might we consider adding the DOI and JSTOR ID for Smith 2024?
  • I haven't in the past done this for books, only for journal articles. Is this is a standard practice? Hog Farm _Talk 13:25, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

  It isn't yet for non-hard sciences articles but I think it should be. JSTOR IDs and DOIs allow direct access to the source if you're logged in through The Wikipedia Library. ISBNs on the other hand are relatively tougher to access. Matarisvan (talk) 15:32, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Is this book on JSTOR? I thought JSTOR was more for journal articles. I tried to bring up the Wikipedia Library JSTOR but my internet connection is not great at the moment and I couldn't get the library to load properly. My understanding is that doi's are used to point to online documents - would this be helpful for a print hardcopy book? Hog Farm _Talk 01:41, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

  Well this is not a deal breaker at all. Adding my support. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 09:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• In Smith 2013, is the first editor Stephen Woodworth or Steven Woodworth? Google Books lists the latter. Guess this is a passing error.
  • This is the same author as Woodworth 2005. Corrected & linked. Hog Farm _Talk 13:25, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

That is all from my end. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 07:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@Matarisvan: - Thanks for the review! I have one question above. Hog Farm _Talk 18:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

UC

A small protest on the use of men as an equivalent for troops, soldiers, forces etc -- we know that at least a small, but very much real, slice of the fighting forces were not covered by that label, before we even start to think about the ones we haven't been able to spot. Per MOS:GNL, gender-neutral language should be used when doing so does not sacrifice precision, and I think there are enough good synonyms here that the guideline should be applied. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:48, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I think I've caught all of these. Hog Farm _Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Support: I made two small edits on GNL, but otherwise have no further concerns. As ever, the article is thorough, detailed, accessible and scholarly, and in my view meets the FA criteria soundly. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:08, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

A few more:

• During the retreat from Champion Hill: I struggled to get my head around the movements here -- I think I was hampered by ignorance of the directions involved. Do I understand it right that Pemberton and co were retreating westwards, that the main body of the force had crossed the BBR, and that he told a small force to wait behind so that any Union advance wouldn't cut off the opportunity for Loring's division to do likewise?
  • I've tried to clarify this a bit - Loring was cut off during the retreat from the Champion Hill field (trying to cross a creek, but not really detail for the lead of this article), and I've noted later in that Pemberton was falling back westwards when he held the BBR bridgehead. Is this better? Hog Farm _Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• an old meander scar: is there such thing as a new meander scar? By their very nature, they have to have a certain antiquity.
  • Removed "old" Hog Farm _Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• The collapse of this portion of the Confederate line forced the troops on either side to withdraw: possibly ambiguous, grammatically if not by common sense, as to whether we mean "the rest of the Confederate troops" or "both the Union and the Confederates".
  • Rephrased Hog Farm _Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• On May 18, the Union army crossed the Big Black River. The surviving Confederate soldiers entered the fortifications at Vicksburg: does this include Loring's troops?
  • Clarified that this is Pemberton's men. Hog Farm _Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• the Union military leadership developed the Anaconda Plan, which was a strategy to defeat the Confederate States of America.: I think we generally take as read that military planners seek to defeat their enemies: perhaps add "by blockading it" or something to clarify the anaconda-ness of this particular plan?
  • Added a brief clarification Hog Farm _Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• a joint army-navy: MOS:DASH wants an endash in this and similar.
  • Done Hog Farm _Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• An attempt to cut Williams's Canal: I wonder whether cut might be misread as "interdict" rather than "build"?
  • I've rephrased to "construct"; I think "build" would be a weird word to describe making a big hole in the ground. Hog Farm _Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• In late November, about 40,000 Union infantry commanded by Major General Ulysses S. Grant began moving south towards Vicksburg from a starting point in Tennessee.: any idea roughly how far this was?
  • I'm trying to find a source that provides a clean figure for this; no luck so far. Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• and was spearheaded by Major General John A. McClernand's XIII Corps troops: troops seems superfluous, unless we mean that it wasn't all of them, in which case I think we need elements of Major General John A. McLernand's XIII Corps or similar.
  • Dropped "troops" Hog Farm _Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• Any reason why the Vicksburg campaign map is left aligned? MOS:ACCESSIBILITY advises right, for a consistent left margin, unless there's a good reason to vary.
  • I can't think of a particular reason why it's like that, so I've moved that one (and another map later in the article) to right align. Hog Farm _Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

More to follow. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 19:36, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• the lead elements of Grant's army, McClernand's corps, crossed the river at Bruinsburg, Mississippi.: two comma-ed off phrases are a bit awkward. Suggest "McLernand's corps, which formed the lead element of Grant's army, crossed...", or else putting dashes around "McClernand's corps" instead of commas.
  • I've shuffled the sentence around to address this (hopefully). Hog Farm _Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• Why doesn't David Dixon Porter get a rank -- almost everyone else seems to?
  • Footnoted (a bit of a non-standard situation). The research for this led me to correct an error in Porter's article. Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• McClernand advanced on the Union left with his corps, Sherman and the XV Corps in the center,: whose corps is this? Looks like McClernand's troops are in two places at once.
  • I've tried rephrasing this to clarify - McClernand with XIII Corps on the right, the center was Sherman's XV Corps, and McPherson was on the right with XVII Corps. Hog Farm _Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• Pemberton decided that Johnston's orders were not compatible with previous directives that he had received from the Confederate president.: any idea what those directives were (and, incidentally, should we name that president?)
  • I've clarified and have name-check Jeff Davis Hog Farm _Talk 21:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
• forgone utilizing is a tautology: simply forgone. What had Grant done instead?
  • Dropped "utilizing" Hog Farm _Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• towards Edwards: suggest the town of Edwards; it reads like a person's name here.
  • Let me look into this a bit further when I get back to my sources; I think it was more of a rail depot/station than anything else at the time. Our article suggests that it wasn't an incorporated town proper until 1871. Hog Farm _Talk 03:52, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
    • I've gone with "Edwards Station", which is pretty common in the relevant literature. Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• To the south lay Gin Lake, the Confederate right flank was at the lake with the line running north to the Big Black River: first comma needs to be a colon or semicolon, or a full stop. Personally, I'd favour the first.
  • I've gone with a colon. Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• I know they're comparatively junior, but should we name the commander of the 4th Mississippi Infantry Regiment, as we have for other formations deemed important enough to name-check?
  • Even Bearss' magnificent trilogy, perhaps the most detailed work ever published on this campaign, only mentions the commander of the 4th Mississippi's name at BBR in an order of battle that lists all regimental commanders in the action, so I don't think this would be due detail. I've generally been mentioning the regimental commanders' names when the sources do. Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• as Carter L. Stevenson's division: for consistency, would give his rank.
  • Added, although it's a bit annoying as I've had to add an isolated page number from the beginning of the source to support that Stevenson was a Major General
• the East Tennessee region, which was loyal to the Union: would rephrase was loyal to the Union, which most naturally reads as "which had not seceded" rather than "in which most people supported the Union, despite it being part of the Confederacy"
  • Is "heavily pro-Union" better? I'd had "disloyal to the Confederacy", but someone had objected to that phrasing at the A-Class review on the grounds that the Confederacy itself was disloyal. Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, but you might want to make absolutely that it was the population rather than the government of the region to which this applied. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:02, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  Have clarified this further. Hog Farm _Talk 21:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• While they were fresh their loyalty to the Confederacy was uncertain: comma needed after fresh, and I would change while to although to remove ambiguity (were they more dependable when they were exhausted?).
  • Done. Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• Bowen's division was the elite unit of Pemberton's army, but they were exhausted after hard fighting at Port Gibson and Champion Hill and had suffered nearly 1,000 casualties in the latter battle: I think we need a sense of how big this division was to begin with to put that number into context.
  • It took some digging, but I finally found a figure - 4,500 per Smith 2006. Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• held the southern portion of the Confederate line and the area where the Jackson Road crossed the line: crossed it?
  • Done. Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• Lindsey advanced his brigade along the railroad 300 yards (270 m),: might be a BrE thing, but don't you normally give the distance before the direction: 100 miles to the north?
  • Added the direction Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• This advance was accomplished without significant casualties: might consider adjusting significant to many or similar: do we mean "few people died" or "nobody important died"? As a frequent flier around here would ask: what did they signify?
  • Have gone with "many". Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• In the 1st Missouri Cavalry (dismounted): I would rewrite the bracketed word as a clause: "which was employed as dismounted infantry"? At the moment, it seems like (dismounted) is part of the name. If it is part of the name, shouldn't it be capitalised?
  • This is how this unit's name usually appears in the sources. For instance, from Smith 2024 p. 136 Bowen sent Colonel Amos C. Riley's 1st Missouri Cavalry (dismounted) [an error; Riley commanded the 1st and 4th Missouri Infantry Regiment (Consolidated)]. Or, more generally, this Google books search. Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  Strange, but you're right to follow the sources. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:03, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

• 90 men and the unit's commander, Colonel Elijah Gates, were captured: my overarching point on "men" notwithstanding, here we've implied that Gates was a woman.
  • This has been addressed in the rewriting for GNL. Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• Two other Confederate steamboats, Charm and Paul Jones, who had been located downstream from the bridge were also burned: I don't think we use who for ships, even if we're going for she.
  • Is "which had been" better? Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  I think so. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

• The 4th Mississippi, one of Vaughn's regiments, and Cockrell's brigade: could this be reworked: it's currently a bit unclear whether we're talking about two units or three.
  • Reordered to have the 4th Mississippi at the end, which I think resolves the ambuguity. Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• not report losses: does this mean that they reported that they had suffered none, or that they made no report as to their losses?
  • Have rephrased for clarity. Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• Should Fred Grant be named as Frederick? We wouldn't talk about Abe Lincoln or Ike Eisenhower in a formal context.
  • I think using "Fred" is appropriate per the sources. See Ballard, pp. 316-317 Fred Grant, the general's twelve-year-old son, strayed too near the river and received a slight wound in the leg. Fred insisted he "had been killed", but he recovered quickly enough his reassured father showed little concern. Smith 2024 p. 367 Fred's enthusiasm was quickly dampened when a Confederate sharpshooter hit him in the leg. Also, I've found and corrected some pretty blatant errors in Fred/Frederick's article as a result of this. Hog Farm _Talk 03:50, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• Grant launched significant attacks on May 19 and 22.: another significant where I think we need to distinguish big from important.
  • Is "major" better? Hog Farm _Talk 04:09, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

  I think it would be. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 15:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

• Consider linking the West Point Atlas map further up as external media? It looks, to me at least, much clearer than the PD map we already have.
  • I've actually added it as a map (I moved the burned-out bridge map down to the aftermath section to make room) and have removed the EL. The map was on Commons and is I believe PD. (heads up Nikkimaria that something has been added post image review). Hog Farm _Talk 04:09, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
    • New map has a dead source link. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:11, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
      • Dammit. Are either this (Library of Congress, lower-quality scan from the book, and numbered as map 105 instead of 21) or this (USMA, converted from the original 1960s book map into a more modern jpg) close enough? Hog Farm _Talk 04:20, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
        • And yet another LOC version, but with this as map 87. Frustrating that the highest quality version is the one I can't replicate. Hog Farm _Talk 04:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
          • IMO the second would work. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:06, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

That's my lot for now: mostly nit-picks, as ever, but I hope some of them are helpful. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 08:41, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist: - Thanks for a very detailed review! I've replied above; this led to me finding and correcting issues in the David Dixon Porter and Frederick Dent Grant articles. Hog Farm _Talk 04:09, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Eddie891

I can do a source review here Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 21:28, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

• Sources all seem high quality and reliable. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 21:32, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
• Assuming there's nothing worth adding from the Further reading? I checked a newspaperarchive to see if there was anything super relevant about preservation of the battlefield but didn't find anything. Hoping to head to the library tomorrow just to confirm that there aren't any relevant books missing. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:59, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
  • I own a copy of the Fullenkamp further reading source. Those battlefield guides are usually just primary source quotations and then some description about how what you have just read from the participants' writings relates to the stop at the battlefield that you are currently at. I will check tonight after work to make sure there isn't anything useful to add though. I've looked at Grant's Lieutenants (don't remember where; I don't have a copy) before and didn't think it looked useful - it's just biographies of various officers Grant interacted with. I'll try to verify that that isn't going to be useful either, though. Hog Farm _Talk 20:52, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
    • I've removed Grant's Lieutenants as it doesn't have a whole lot to say about this battle based on Google Books preview. I've left the guide in for now, although it doesn't have anything worth adding to this article. Hog Farm _Talk 00:31, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
      • Thanks, I'm satisfied with that answer. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:33, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• I've just spot-checked some of the citations to Woodworth, Ballard, Smith 2013, Shea and Winschel, and every citation lined up how it should. This makes me very happy :) Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:33, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• Finally, I've looked at Schultz The Most Glorious Fourth and Groom Vicksburg, 1863 (which, after skimming, are less academic than I had anticipated), and neither had anything really to offer, and I'm reasonably satisfied that this is a sufficiently comprehensive account. Source review - Pass Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:42, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Crisco 1492

• After engaging and defeating Confederate forces in several intermediate battles, Grant's army defeated Lieutenant General John C. Pemberton's Confederates at the decisive Battle of Champion Hill on May 16. - Is it necessary to repeat "Confederate/s" in this sentence?
• The withdrawal became chaotic and 1,751 Confederate soldiers and 18 cannons were captured. The cannons were captured because their teams of horses were erroneously positioned on the other side of the Big Black River. - Suggestion: "The withdrawal became chaotic and 1,751 Confederate soldiers were captured, as were eighteen cannons, their teams of horses were erroneously positioned on the other side of the Big Black River."
• entered the fortifications at Vicksburg - Vicksburg is already linked in the first paragraph
• The Union won the battle, but the fighting at Raymond led Grant to change his plans to swing over towards Jackson, Mississippi, to disperse a Confederate force gathering there. The Confederate commander at Jackson, General Joseph E. Johnston, decided to abandon Jackson. - Any way to avoid repeating Jackson?
• When planning this offensive, Pemberton did not know that Grant had forgone a traditional line of communications during his movement inland. - Did he not have a line of communications, or did he use a non-traditional approach?
• 5,000-man force - Given the above comments, going to highlight this one.
• strongly man - Same as above
• Early on the morning of May 17, McClernand's troops advanced through Edwards and then encountered the Confederate line. His advance was led by the division of Brigadier General Eugene Carr. Carr's lead brigade was led by Brigadier General William P. Benton; the 33rd Illinois Infantry Regiment led the way as skirmishers. - Three leds in two sentences
• two of Garrard's regiments, the 49th Indiana Infantry Regiment and 69th Indiana Infantry Regiment - Suggestion: two of Garrard's infantry regiments, the 49th Indiana and 69th Indiana
• three regiments – the 11th Wisconsin Infantry Regiment, the 21st Iowa Infantry Regiment, and the 23rd Iowa Infantry Regiment – - Any way to avoid repeating regiment four times in one sentence?
• Any reason for the two spaces after the periods? It's not consistent, which is why I ask.

Overall, very well done.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 20:12, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie

• "After a day of fighting, the Confederates were defeated, and Grand Gulf was abandoned on May 3": suggest "... and abandoned Grand Gulf on May 3". The active voice makes it unambiguous who is doing the abandoning.
• "McClernand advanced on the Union left with his XII corps": the map in the "Prelude" section shows the XIII corps on the left.
• "the fighting at Raymond led Grant to change his plans to swing over towards Jackson, Mississippi": suggest rephrasing: I initially parsed this as saying his plan was to swing towards Jackson, but he changed his mind. Perhaps "the fighting at Raymond led Grant to change his plans; instead of X, he swung over towards Jackson, Mississippi", inserting whatever X was.
• "The Union took the city and then destroyed military facilities within it." I think you could cut "then".
• "the Confederate right flank was at the lake with the line running north to the Big Black River, which made a bend east of the bridge across the Big Black River". Suggest "which made a bend east of the bridge across it".

That's all I can see to complain about. A fine article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:01, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Busbridge War Memorial

Nominator(s): Harry Mitchell (talk) 15:05, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

This is another Lutyens war memorial. Probably the last of his memorials in England that has enough coverage for an FA, but then I thought that about the Cenotaph and and I've managed to bring two others through FAC since then! This one is in a tiny village in what (at the turn of the 20th century) was a rural part of Surrey, to the south west of London but it tells an interesting story. Lutyens became a nationally renowned architect, responsible for an array of famous buildings, but his career kick-started in Busbridge when he was in his 20s and the village contains several of his works. Indeed, it was here that he first heard the term "cenotaph", a term he indelibly linked with war memorials, so it was only fitting that he should design the village's war memorial.

I created the article way back in 2016 but I've always felt there was more to say. A recent trip to Busbridge inspired me to see if I could "finish" it. I'm indebted to @Carcharoth, KJP1, and SchroCat: for their help and advice, including digging up some difficult-to-find sources. It's not a long article, but I think it tells the story comprehensively. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:05, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Some images are missing alt text. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:15, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria thank you! Remiss of me. Now added to the other two images. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:50, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Steelkamp

• "7-metre (23-foot) tall" -> "7-metre-tall (23-foot)"
  • I see why that might be seen as desirable (and thanks for the template magic!) but it interrupts the sentence flow without clarifying anything that is likely to be misunderstood so I'd rather not unless it's a dealbreaker.
    • I'd rather it this way because 7-metre-tall is a compound adjective, so it shouldn't be separated, and this seems to be the specific situation where adj=mid should be used in Template:Convert.
      • Fair enough. I think it's more jarring this way but you are technically correct the best kind of correct. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:54, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
• "and was upgrade to" -> "and was upgraded to"
• I recommend linking Surrey upon first mention in the body. Also, I recommend linking Berkshire and Somerset.
  • Surrey done. I don't think Somerset or Berkshire are directly relevant enough to require links in such quick succession to the war memorials (which are linked) located in those counties.
• "and possessing "the same over-developed sense of volumetric relations as" The Cenotaph." -> "and possessing "the same over-developed sense of volumetric relations as" the Cenotaph."
• A non-breaking space should be put between "H. M." as per MOS:INITIALS.
• "he unveiled several war memorials in the county" -> "he unveiled several other war memorials in the county".
• "national anthem." Can God Save the King be linked?
• There are several instances of brackets being used where I think commas would be better. I recommend these changes:
  • "Historic England (the government body responsible for listing) recognised Lutyens's war memorials" -> "Historic England, the government body responsible for listing, recognised Lutyens's war memorials"
  • "The cross was unveiled by General Sir Charles Monro (the colonel of the local regiment) on 23 July 1922" -> "The cross was unveiled by General Sir Charles Monro, the colonel of the local regiment, on 23 July 1922"
• The lead says this: " the relationship led to many commissions for Lutyens for country houses in the early days of his career." But in the body, the part mentioning Gertrude Jekyll came after the part about the country houses. Was Lutyen's relationship with Jekyll really the reason why Lutyen had many commissions for country houses?

  It's a little complicated without getting too far off-topic. He already had his own practice and was designing country houses, but his career really took off after Munstead Wood, from which he earnt a string of commissions for Jekyll's friends and extended family. This is the point that he became fashionable, though it's hard to tell whether that would have happened had he not met Jekyll. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:57, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

  Either way, the lead should be changed to be consistent with the body or vice versa. Steelkamp (talk) 15:48, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

  @HJ Mitchell: I still think this should be changed so that the lead is consistent with the body. The lead could be changed to say "Lutyens built his early reputation on designing country houses. His connection with Busbridge began in the 1880s when he partnered with Gertrude Jekyll, a local artist and gardener who lived at nearby Munstead Wood." This then does not imply something that the body does not. Steelkamp (talk) 03:53, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Those are all the comments I have. Steelkamp (talk) 10:14, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@Steelkamp Sorry to keep you waiting. I've made just about all the suggested changes except where I've commented above. Happy to chat if there's anything else. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:11, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

• Hi Steelkamp, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  After my one comment above is addressed, I will support. Steelkamp (talk) 03:54, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

HF

• "and he spent much of his time from 1917 onwards on memorialising its casualties." - not seeing where the source specifically references 1917
• "The memorial was designated a Grade II listed building on 1 February 1991." - citation placement issue; the following citation is [17] which doesn't mention this, although it is supported by [1] which is cited later in the paragraph

Good work; I expect to support. Hog Farm _Talk 01:25, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Supporting; not much to complain about here. Hog Farm _Talk 01:47, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments Support from Tim riley

Excellent article. A few minor quibbles:

• "His connection to Busbridge" – unexpected choice of preposition: usually, a house is connected to the gas mains, but a person is connected with somewhere or something.
• "and was upgrade to Grade II*" – upgraded?
• "led to multiple other commissions" – I don't think you need the "other", which looks a bit odd
• "The war memorial in Busbridge was one of several by Lutyens …" – and presumably still is.
• "he executed multiple designs for Jekyll's sister-in-law" – I'm not sure how one designs a sister-in-law. It might be less Frankensteinian if you changed "for" to "commissioned by", "on behalf of", or some such.
• "a lozenge-shaped tapered shaft" – chancing my arm, and quite prepared to be told I'm talking rubbish, but I thought a lozenge was shaped like the symbol of diamonds in a pack of cards, which the picture of the memorial doesn't resemble.
• "by The Reverend H. M. Larner" – a lower case t is usual for "the Reverend" in mid-sentence.
• "all are Grade II listed" – no real danger of your being misunderstood, but it might be as well to add "three memorials", lest someone determined to misunderstand think it was the three people who were listed.

That's all from me. I hope some, at least, of these comments are of use. Tim riley talk 13:44, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Tim riley, @Hog Farm Apologies for the delay. I think I've addressed all your comments. Please let me know if not! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:12, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Still not convinced by his designing a-sister-in-law nor what is lozenge-shaped. Tim riley talk 22:04, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

@Tim riley I've worded the sister-in-law; open to further wordsmithing. We share an understanding of what a lozenge is, but I assure you the memorial is lonzenge-shaped. Possibly slightly squat but it has four roughly diagonal sides. It's more evident towards the top because of the tapering. The photos we have on Commons (including some of mine) don't do it justice. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:04, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

OK – that will do me fine on both points. Very pleased to add my support for this top-notch article. Meets all the FA criteria in my view. Rather sad if this is the last of Harry's articles on war memorials we'll be seeing here. Tim riley talk 22:10, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Tim. It's probably the last Lutyens (unless I do some of the memorials abroad) but it won't be the last war memorial. :) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Good! Tim riley talk 22:18, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Carcharoth

Only a few comments:

• I would quibble with "the Cenotaph in London, which he named after a garden seat at Munstead Wood" in the lead. Learning of the term 'cenotaph' and using it elsewhere is not the same as naming something after a garden seat. Would also quibble with the stained glass windows being said to "commemorate the war" (slightly clumsy phrasing - see also next comment).
  • I don't think it's inaccurate. It's a bit of an oversimplification, but for the sake of concision in the lead.
• Saying "a pair of stained-glass windows by Archibald Keightley Nicholson" mis-represents what is there. There are six 1919 stained glass windows by Nicholson, forming three pairs. One pair is for "the war" (the one you describe). The second pair is for two Old Shirburnians who fell in the war. The third pair is for Charles Henry Tisdall (another of those who fell).
  • It's not a misrepresentation to say that a pair exists when three pairs exist; the others are of limited relevance to the war memorial. Nonetheless, I've added in a note to be clear.
• Saying "locations of much fighting during the war" for Amiens Cathedral seems slightly odd. It overlooked the Somme battlefields, and would have been familiar to veterans who passed through or were garrisoned in or near there. Scapa Flow could also be slightly better explained. This is a case maybe of 'explain properly' rather than too briefly?
  • I was never very happy with this form of words but I can't come up with anything better and even that half a sentence is getting away from the subject at hand so I've culled it.
• Where can a curious reader go to read the 42 names? (Online, not on the church wall!) The names on the church wall include Francis McLaren who (as you note) is buried in the churchyard with his own memorial. I am unsure if McLaren (who was not a local, but married into the Jekyll family - a point that may be worth mentioning) is in the roll of honour for Busbridge (it looks like he met the inclusion criteria for the local war memorial committee that would have decided such things).
• Given that the memorial does not list the names, arguably the book of remembrance in the church is 'part' of the memorial, so might there be a case for including File:WWI book of remembrance in Busbridge Church (cropped).jpg? It is not the most visual picture, but would add to the article, IMO (the stained glass windows are shown in the church article, and we really should have a proper listing of Nicholson's windows).
• Can anything useful be used or cited to (or found elsewhere) from this page where the decision making process is outlined? Warning: the link to the 'names' has been cybersquatted. The names are available here (IWM Memorials Register). Surely there must be more details on the approach made to Lutyens to design the memorial? Are all the sources silent on this?
• One of the names of those the memorial commemorates is that of the 7th Earl of Shannon, Richard Bernard Boyle. No idea what the connection is with Busbridge. He inherited his father's earldom at the age of nine, and died aged 19 just over ten years later (EDIT: Apparently, at the time of his death his address was a house called 'Trusca' in Ramsden Road near Busbridge, towards Godalming. His younger brother [the next earl, aged 16 or 17] was in India in 'Havelock House' and was named in the probate as adminstrating the estate's affairs).

That last point was a bit tangential, but I mention it in case there is anything useful in a suitable source (it looks to me as if the inclusion criteria were quite broad here, but I doubt anyone has written about that - it is not entirely clear if it was a parish war memorial or a more broadly defined 'local' war memorial for those with connections with the area, or simply relatives in the area). Carcharoth (talk) 05:28, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Harry. Just a reminder that there are still comments to address above. Cheers. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:12, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Adding some supplementary comments to make my position clearer: (1) The Earl of Shannon comment is tangential (no sources talk about any of those the memorial commemorates as far as I can see), so please disregard this. (2) The sentence in the lead about Munstead Wood would be better if it stopped at the word "London". The origin of the name of the London Cenotaph is not needed in the lead of this article. (3) More relevant is the military service of the rector at the unveiling (for one of the clergy dedicating a local war memorial to have been a military chaplain serving in the war, and with direct experience, may have been relatively rare, it certainly adds context): The Rector, Rev. Larner, served as British Civil Chaplain in Calais from 1915-1916 and as chaplain to the forces in France and Belgium 1917-18. Full name and roles: "Rev Capt. Henry Meredith Larner" (c.1866-1950). It seems his appointment for the period 1917 to 1918 was temporary: see ACAD entry. Carcharoth (talk) 13:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Apologies. I see that the Larner military connection is already there! I somehow missed that... The point I am trying to make (a bit clumsily) is that the military and war service aspects are not in the lead, while Munstead Wood is mentioned twice. Lutyens is mentioned in the lead seven times. The lead feels at times more like a paean to Lutyens, rather than a summary of the purpose and history of this war memorial. I would personally add the number of FWW names in the church (42) to the lead, add the name of Nicholson, maybe add the name of McLaren, and say more about the unveiling (e.g. that buglers from the Grenadier Guards were there, which is actually really fascinating - they were likely there because some of the men commemorated were from the Grenadier Guards, not, again, that anyone will have written about that - at least not yet). It is very likely, IMO, that the Grenadier Guard buglers were there, in part, because Lieutenant-Colonel L R Fisher-Rowe was among those being commemorated. It is awkward, because the point of such memorials is to commemorate all equally, so mentioning individual names in the Wikipedia article about the memorial feels wrong (but many of our articles on war memorials do just this, listing the 'famous' people named on the memorial or whom the memorial is intended for). There is a listing of names here and I am glad I looked at that because it turns out that a second person that this memorial commemorates has a Wikipedia article, namely Harry Pennell. And FWIW, you can see here an artwork of Sir Edward George Jenkinson one of the bereaved (his son John Jenkinson is commemorated here). Sir Edward would not have been in the crowd at the unveiling (he died in 1919), but you get the idea (e.g. Charles Hodson, Baron Hodson was the younger brother of Hubert Bernard Hodson (one of those named here), and one of the sisters of the Hodsons was Catherine Mary Maskew Hodson who was the wife of Harry Pennell - it appears that like McLaren, Pennell appears on this memorial because of having married into a local family). I do think mentioning Pennell can be justified (it is the sort of thing that would be of interest to those reading the article), and maybe even mentioning Fisher-Rowe (e.g. from this Western Front Association article, Fisher-Rowe features as one of "nine Lieutenant Colonels [...] killed during the course of the battle" (the Battle of Neuve Chapelle) because of the Grenadier Guards connection. What you really want is a source saying why the Grenadier Guards buglers were there, but that doesn't seem to exist. It is also worth making the point (as some readers will assume that all those named died abroad) that three of those named are buried in the churchyard where this memorial is erected: McLaren, W. T. Knight, and Robert John Potter. We have photos available of all three headstones: 1, 2, 3). What I am trying to get at is that a reader stood in front of the war memorial, in the same churchyard, and reading this Wikipedia article would want to be told this, so they have the additional context - possibly in a footnote if you think it would disturb the flow of the main article. I do get the argument that for this wider context, the article on the church itself would be a better location for text and photos relating to this, but war graves and war memorial content feels more appropriate here in this article. In essence, I am questioning why there is so much content relating to Lutyens, Jekyll and Munstead Wood, compared to text about the purpose of the memorial and its place in the wider memorial landscape. I do think, given the 'group value' that includes the church itself, you could include more on the FWW graves and the memorial windows. I have gone on a bit (sorry). Will stop there. Carcharoth (talk) 14:58, 3 November 2024 (UTC) Edited to add bit more. Carcharoth (talk) 21:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

In a nutshell, there's so much about Lutyens because that's why this memorial is notable. It's why it's grade ii* listed and has a detailed list entry and why the majority of the source material is about Lutyens (four of the books are biographies of Lutyens, two discuss it in passing, and Pevsner only mentions it in relation to Lutyens's other works). Here's a fairly random example of a churchyard war memorial by an unknown architect. If Busbridge had been designed by an unknown/local architect, it probably wouldn't even be notable, much less a viable FA candidate. It doesn't even merit a mention in any of the books I have on British memorials generally, even Borg and Boorman who discuss hundreds of them including some fairly obscure ones. So I will definitely look at some of your suggested inclusions but the nutshell if the nutshell is that the article reflects the source material as it is, not as we wish it would be. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:03, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

This is a very fair summary of why this article (as you acknowledged in the nomination) is on the edge of what is possible for a featured article. Some might argue that this is better done as a series of well-referenced list entries. Indeed, I did try and look at the other 15 Lutyens 'War Crosses' (you use the phrase "one of 15 crosses Lutyens designed") that are presumably in List of works by Edwin Lutyens (which you have as a 'See also' in this article), but it is surprisingly difficult to identify which the 15 'war crosses' are from that list... My wider point was more that when writing about war memorials like this, as well as the general "why we care about Lutyens and his war memorials" spiel (which those reading your series of articles will be very familiar with by now), what occurred to me was that what is really needed is something explaining why we care (and still care) about war memorials (or more specifically, what it was about local war memorials in Britain)? You do cover this with your line "In the aftermath of the First World War (1914–1918) and its unprecedented casualties, thousands of war memorials were built across Britain." and the line "an eloquent witness to the tragic impacts of world events on this community". But then you don't say anything about the diverse range of types within those thousands of memorials, and who erected them. The real context only comes when you read an article such as World War I memorials. There are lines from that article and its references that (suitably rewritten) would really enhance this article (and others like it):

"In Britain and Australia, local community leaders were expected to organise local committees to create war memorials. Britain had a strong tradition of local government, and mayors, council chairmen or similar leaders would usually step forward to establish a memorial committee."

What you don't explicitly state anywhere in the article is that the origin of this memorial was supported by the church who provided the land on which it was erected. It was not erected in a public space such as the village green, but within the consecrated environment of the churchyard (in some villages, this would have caused problems relating to different Christian denominations, but clearly that issue was overcome here, or not a factor). And in mentioning the location within the churchyard you can mention the other memorials within the church's space (the three FWW graves and the memorial windows and so on). That it was part of an explicit scheme driven by the church. This makes it different from Mells War Memorial (on a public road) and Wargrave War Memorial (on a donated piece of land on the village green). This is a key point of difference which is not emphasised enough, nor referred to explicitly, in the current article. The other point of difference is that this is not a regimental memorial, or a workplace memorial, or a county memorial, it is a local (parish) memorial. You also need something in the lead explicitly stating that the memorial was to the dead of this village, as currently the phrase "the colonel of the local regiment" means people might think this is a regimental memorial. It is nice that a photo of the unveiling is here - probably not possible to obtain a freely licensed version of that, sadly. Maybe that page can be an external link? BTW, you mentioned Borg (1988) and Boorman (1991), and I know you use more recent sources, but so much has been written in the last 20 years. Is there nothing you have that would help the reader get a sense for what memorials like this meant to the communities that erected them? A general line that following their erection, such memorials became the centre of subsequent commemoration, whether personal or in the form of community events such as Armistice Day silences and services? On the unveiling itself, does the newspaper article you cite (from The Surrey Advertiser) explicitly say that the crowd included the families of the fallen soldiers? Do you leave that unsaid because it is so obvious, or because no sources explicitly state it? Carcharoth (talk) 18:06, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

SC

Putting down a marker for now. - SchroCat (talk) 06:12, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support on prose following my PR checks and the additional work done since. The only query I would have on a further readthrough is that you link First World War, but not Second World War; is that a deliberate choice? - SchroCat (talk) 10:10, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Source review

Spotchecks not done

• Why is NHLE linked every time but Historic England not?

• Ranges should use endashes, including in titles

• How are you ordering Bibliography? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Nikki, many thanks for taking a(nother!) look. The bibliography was supposed to be alphabetical but I put a later addition in the wrong place, now fixed! Dash also fixed. The NHLE citations are produced by {{NHLE}}; apparently there's a "fewer links" option but that's actually "no links". HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Airship

A high-class article which I can support off the bat. Just a couple of comments:

• Maybe just note the dates of WWI at its first mention in the body?
  • Done for now but there's potential confusion with the dates on the memorial.
• Do we know who commissioned this particular memorial?
  • Unfortunately we know very little about how it came to be. These things were often not recorded in small villages or the recirds have been lost.
• I would switch the ordering of the second and third paragraphs of the "History" section, because the discussion of what the different "listing" classifications mean in the current third paragraph will reveal more about the actual listings in the current second.
• If the Abinger Common memorial is of similar design and nearby, maybe it's worth mentioning in the body?

Otherwise, very nice and moving work. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Harry ? Gog the Mild (talk) 00:07, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I am still working on this. Two quick replies to Airship above. I'll be back but it might be Sunday. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:09, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Harry ? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

La Isla Bonita

Nominator(s): Christian (talk) 16:33, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

This article is about one of American singer Madonna's most iconic and known songs, "La Isla Bonita". Having nominated this article previously, and having read the comments left by other users, I went source by source, making sure everything mentioned is properly cited. Christian (talk) 16:33, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Review from Hurricanehink

Support. As a musician familiar with this song, I figured I'd review it, due to having an FAC of my own.

• She also said: "[Pat and I] both think that we were Latin in another life [...] [because] Latin rhythms often dominate our uptempo compositions". - seeing as previously Pat was introduced as Patrick Leonard, perhaps the name should be Patrick here for consistency, especially since it's in a bracket.Done

• Did you fix this? It still says She also said: "[Pat and I] both think that we were Latin in another life ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:30, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• What about this? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:24, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• Thoughts on this? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• "In 2014, while working on her thirteenth studio album Rebel Heart (2015) with producer Diplo, Madonna recorded a dubplate of "La Isla Bonita" with new lyrics that referenced trio Major Lazer.[15] This version premiered in March 2015 on BBC Radio 1Xtra." - I had to look up what a dubplate is... seems like this version is for vinyl release, right? I think a lot more people are aware of vinyl records. Either way, it sounds like it's a new recorded version, correct? If so, are the new lyrics in the form of a new verse, or is it just new vocals? This part comes out of left field and I'm not sure what to make of it. Shouldn't the dubplate version also be included under "Track listing and formats"?
• Done I aditionally changed the mention to the Composition and Lyrics section

• Should this get a mention under "Track listing and formats"? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:30, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I didn't found any sources mentioning a release that merits being under the forementioned section, just YouTube and SoundCloud links.

Isn't digital release a format? It just seems odd this version of the song isn't included in this section. ♫ Hurricanehink (

It is not on itunes/spotify/amazon music; like I mentioned, it is only available on YouTube and soundcloud, and there are many links, and none from an official source.

Yea but Youtube and Soundcloud both cound as release format, don't they? Also, it seems like the remix version is available from the Madonna channel, which is considered the official Madonna channel on YouTube, having almost all of her stuff. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The dubplate Diplo Remix is not included on neither Madonna or Diplo's official YouTube Channel.

talk) 21:24, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• "The song is set in the key of C♯ minor, with Madonna's voice spanning between G3 to C5." - because of the key signature, those notes should be G#3 and C#5. I appreciate you including this information, however.

  Done

• If you're going to be linking to the notes though, it should be linked to G# and C#, not G and C respectively. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:30, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• Not a complaint, but I also really appreciated the balanced reviews of the song, plus its place in Latin music history in the US.
• "and became the most requested video in the channel's history for a record-breaking 20 consecutive weeks." - was that for TRL? How did people request the video on MTV pre-internet? This was a bit before my time.

  That's how/what the source mentions, that it was the most requested. I tried looking for sources that specify how it was requested (my guess is that people usually phoned the channels) but didn't find any valid sources.

• Yea I see this repeated in a lot of sources, but I don't see any clarification. No huge deal. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:30, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• "As of 2018, it is one of her most viewed music videos on YouTube." - what about 6 years later? Or I'm guessing you might not have an updated source, no biggie if that's the case.
• "La Isla Bonita" has been included on eight of Madonna's concert tours: Who's That Girl (1987), the Girlie Show (1993), Drowned World (2001), Confessions (2006), Sticky & Sweet (2008–2009), Rebel Heart (2015–2016), Madame X (2019–2020), and Celebration (2023–2024). On the first one, she wore a Spanish cabaret dress, and was joined by her backup singers Niki Haris, Donna De Lory, and Debra Parson. - just doing a random spotcheck here, but the references here are from 1987 and 1988, so how could those references cite the rest of the tours? Perhaps a source for the songs from Madonna's concert tours? Or otherwise a grouped citation?

  I could cite the tour's program, which mentions the vocalists; it does not, however, specify their participation on the performance.

• Then perhaps just a lumped citation for each tour? Similar to how you have the note saying "attributed to multiple references". ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:30, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• What about this one? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:24, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Hurricanehink:! Just checking back! I quite personally like how this section looks/is structured; lumping citations for each tour, I believe would causeemore notes than necessary.--Christian (talk) 15:45, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't mind how the section is structured, but there isn't a citation that proves "La Isla Bonita" has been included on eight of Madonna's concert tours. It's implied that the song's appearance is in refs 103 and 104, but that's not the case. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

All in all a great read, and I'm shocked no one else has commented yet! Let me know if you have any questions about these comments. Cheers - ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:17, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your great comments @Hurricanehink:--Christian (talk) 16:37, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Few replies. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:30, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Let me see if how I've left it works @Hurricanehink:--Christian (talk) 18:48, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Just checking how you're doing about my last few comments? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Chrishm21 ? Gog the Mild (talk) 19:45, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Hurricanehink:! Just got back home from a trip so I hadn't got the chance to log in. I have included the citations that mention the song's inclusion on the mentioned concert tours. Let me know--Christian (talk) 14:28, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Happy to support now. I just fixed the one comment on my own, the one about linking Patrick Leonard, and changing the quote from [Pat and I] to [Patrick and I]. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 14:59, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Coordinator note

As per the instructions at the top of WP:FAC, please refrain from using graphics like {{done}} as they slow down the page load time. FrB.TG (talk) 08:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

• Three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next five or six days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:37, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Madonna_-_La_Isla_Bonita.ogg needs a more substantial FUR, particularly purpose of use

• The FUR for File:La_Isla_Bonits_screenshot.jpg indicates that it is replaceable - if that's the case, why do we need a non-free image? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Nikkimaria:! Thank you for your comments; both files are meant to showcase the mentioning of the San Pedro line, and Madonna's Flamenco dancer character from the video--Christian (talk) 14:30, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

In both cases the rationale should be elaborated in the FUR template on the image description page. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:21, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Nikkimaria:! Let me know if how I've mentioned on the image talk page is correct.--Christian (talk) 01:03, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't quite follow the change you've made on the second - is it replaceable, or is it necessary to illustrate what you've said it's illustrating? And I'm not seeing any changes on the first? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:10, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Is is replaceable, but I mentioned why this particular screenshot was used. If it were to be replaced, it should first be discussed on the article's talk page. Same for the audio file; I explained the purpose on the section it's used. Let me if it works @Nikkimaria:! Christian (talk) 01:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support, following corrections. Vera (talk) 21:05, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Apoxyomenus

• Hi, article overall looks good at first glance. Here are some points from a quick view,

The Massachusetts Daily Collegian | It is a student-newspaper, and not sure if is enough reliable to use it.

Charts: West Germany (GfK) (weekly) vs West Germany (Official German Charts), you should use one only. Or GFK or Official German Charts to keep consistensy. The same goes to Iceland (RÚV) while in ref's parameter RÚV is italicized. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 00:03, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

All fixed. Let me know @Apoxyomenus Christian (talk) 17:38, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Good! Article looks fine to me. Support nomination. Cheers --Apoxyomenus (talk) 22:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Source review & spot-check

Some sources throw a "CS1 maint: others in cite AV media (notes)" error. There are a number of sources saying Billboard or Music & Media but linking https://www.worldradiohistory.com/ and should explain this, and Billboard needs no ISSN. What make https://chrisbungostudios.com/, http://www.chartsinfrance.net/Alizee/news-66412.html, https://www.logotv.com/news/bdtywh/madonnas-55-best-videos-in-honor-of-her-55th-birthday and https://infodisc.fr/Chanson_Certifications.php reliable sources? Does Los 40 need italics or other formatting? Wondering if "Chow, Victoria (2004). Madonna. Metro Media Publishers. ISBN 1-904756-12-3." is a reliable source, and AllMusic. "Consumption and Spirituality" is unused. Google Books needs no archive links. Does "Madonna: The Rolling Stone Files" not have an author? Spot-check of this version:

• 1 Need a quote for 1985. I also think not all of the content is on these two pages.

Page 40 of Madonna: A Biography by Madonna [Mentions the Virgin tour and the year 1985, and flows into '...Madonna was already into her next project that fall, writing and recording for her third studio album, True Blue'

• 2 Does not say that the victory tour was in 1984

Per Victory Tour article.

I think it's better to omit the year, then. We can't rely on other Wikipedia articles as sources. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I've added a source too back up the year of the tour @Jo-Jo Eumerus:.

* 42 Does not mention Ed Schrodt.

Ed Schrodt reviews 'La Isla Bonita' on Slant Magazine's ranking, ref. 43

Where does it say "Ed"? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

It's Paul Schrodt, my bad. Again, in the article; the first songs have the name and lastname of the author who's reviewing them (Sal Cinquemani, Eric Henderson, Paul Schrodt and so on) In the case of 'La Isla Bonita' (no. 15 on the ranking), it clearly lists Schrodt as the last name of the reviewer Schrodt = Paul Schrodt

• 56 Where is "On March 21, 1987" and "and one of the most added songs on radio stations"

Lean on Me' hits no. 1 for the 2nd time, by Paul Grein; ['Madonna's 'La Isla Bonita' is the new top entry on this week's Hot 100], dated March 21, 1987

Does that date really reference the debut, rather than the publication of the article? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I've added an additional source

Still not getting it. Perhaps a quote would help. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry but what is it you don't get? It's clearly in ref 56 (The week of March 21, 1987) in the original unarchived link, number 49, it says the word 'New' next to the song's title. La Isla Bonita entered the chart, was a new addition to the chart... in the week of March 21, 1987 Same for ref 57 ('Lean on Me'); 'La Isla Bonita' is the top new entry on this week's Hot 100 at No. 49; the issue belongs to the week of March 21, 1987, therefore indicating the song entered the Hot 100 chart in the week of March 21, 1987. I did deleted the 'most added to radio stations' part, as nowhere in the sources does it mention that.

The radio thing was the problem. If it's gone, this one's resolved. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

* 66 This should be flagged so that it shows the archived link. It's not on place 58?

Sources taken from chart template.

* 76 OK

• 77 OK
• 82 OK
• 85 Need a quote or something.
• 108 Need a quote or something.

Cite AV Media

• 109 Need a quote or something.

Cite AV Media

'fraid that the photo is too small to make out the date. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Of which one? @Jo-Jo Eumerus: Are the others OK?--Christian (talk) 14:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

The Italy one. Also, if the whirlpool image is the Japan one, it doesn't mention either the date or the place. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:23, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

• 111 Need a quote or something from 110.
• 154 Need a quote or something.

* 158 Even accessing both sources, I don't get everything.

The AllMusic link -which by the way is a perfectly valid source used on multiple music-related articles- is that of the Mexican tour edition of Alizee's album; in the tracklisting section, it clearly mentions 'La Isla Bonita'

I remember that for a while, AllMusic was considered to be WP:USERGENERATED which is why I always wonder. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

AllMusic is used in multiple music-related FAs. See 4, Fearless, 1989, Holy Wood, and many more

• 162 This says nothing about leaks or anything untoward.

Native Spanish speaker here; ['la web de fans de la cantante, Breatheheavy, acaba de sacar a la luz = The singer's fansite, Breateheavey, leaked online']

• 175 What does this support?

My bad, it supports the Super Mix Green RSD Exclusive 2019 release

• 178 Where is "Flanders"?

Flanders, the dutch-speaking northern portion of Belgium; per chart-template configuration it shows up like that

I worry that this is a bit WP:SYNTH Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

That's how the chart template is programmed, so I don't see an isse. (See the forementioned featured articles)

• 186 Need someone who can read Japanese to verify.

* 196 OK

• 205 Pretty sure this source doesn't say "30000 exactly".

It doesn't mention the number, but it does mention the single was certified gold; 30000 was the amount of copies a single needes to sell/ship to be certified gold here in Spain

OK, but in that case it should say "at least 30000" Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, per chart-template configuration it cannot be written/pointed out like that.

I don't think the chart-template configuration justifies writing it out like that. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

See forementioned featured articles I've linked before. If you believe it should be specified differently, a discussion should be created in the template page.

Bit many source/text disagreements if this article needs to be watched for fabricated content (per FrB.TG's note at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Image and source check requests). Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:45, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I've left some comments. I must digress a little and ask if it's really necessary to add quotes for the Harvard citations. I've looked into other featured articles and never once did I encounter this. I look forward to your answer @Jo-Jo Eumerus:--Christian (talk) 15:04, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant quotes or screenshots or photos here (not in the article) so that I can verify the content. For spotchecks I generally want to see everything for myself. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:28, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

You want screenshots/photos... of the sources? @Jo-Jo Eumerus:--Christian (talk) 16:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes. The relevant pages, at least. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I have posted a link to the Mary Cross (in fact, the most relevant book sources are linked on the 'Literary sources' section) , and found a new one for the Spain chart position -I was not able to access the Salaverri book. For the Cite AV media ones, shall I post the link to the releases sleeves? Let me know if it works. @Jo-Jo Eumerus:--Christian (talk) 18:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The usual ways is by either uploading a screenshot or photo to Google Drive and posting a link here, or by emailing them to me. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Will get back to you with the other sources in a bit @Jo-Jo Eumerus:--Christian (talk) 14:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

OK. Keep in mind that I'll be busy updating my own articles in these weeks, so I might not respond immediately. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:08, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

New comments @Jo-Jo Eumerus:--Christian (talk) 15:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Benjamin F. McAdoo

Nominator(s): Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 14:57, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Benjamin Franklin McAdoo Jr. was the first Black licensed architect in the state of Washington. He had a long and productive career, featuring work in the Seattle area, Jamaica, and Washington, D.C. He also (unsuccessfully) attempted to run for the Washington state legislature. I had a very fun time writing this article, and hope that people enjoy reading it! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 14:57, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Source review from PMC

Already did my GA review with an eye to this being a FAC in future, but will have another read through. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:23, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Decided to go with a source review since I already read a bunch for the GAN. Sourcing is based on newspapers, academic journals, magazines, and publications by non-profits. No concerns about reliability of any of them. Formatting is consistent, organisation is clear.

Nitpicks:

• Drosendahl is missing the website or publishing organization or what have you
• Refs where the date is unavailable like Houser and Michelson 2 should use |date=n.d..
• These 2 refs and Williams also don't have retrieval dates
• Why is Michaelson 2 sfn'd as PCAD when we have an author name?

I did some spot checking at the GAN, which was all addressed, but I'll poke at a few more since I'm here.

• Cottrell-Crawford & Heuser 2023 - text with refs to this source are supported by the source
• Drosendahl 2016 - supports the building of the Des Moines library, which isn't in Shaping Seattle, so not redundant
  • Did the firm complete any other notable projects? The Shaping Seattle source doesn't mention any. If there aren't any, I think it might be somewhat redundant to say they went on to construct other projects - if the firm survived for 20 years, surely they were doing architectural work during that time.
• PCAD/Michaelson 2 good
• Mahmoud 2022 no issues here

No rush on responding, cheers! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:22, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

@Premeditated Chaos: Good call on the Drosendahl; fixed everything else too. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 05:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Passes my source review. (I made a slight tweak to the Des Moines sentence, but feel free to revert if you don't like it). ♠PMC♠ (talk) 18:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Lead image is missing alt text

Also, not an image comment, but I would suggest a review for MOS issues. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:47, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

SnowFire

Nice work. Usual disclaimer goes here that these comments are suggestions, not demands. A few comments:

• He became interested in architecture, motivated by his belief in [[Right to housing|housing as a human right]]

Not sure this is the best phrasing. Is this from the Mahmoud article? Because it writes "He was very concerned about human rights…. Not only did he believe in fair housing, he felt that he should participate in fair housing." I'm not sure that's quite the same thing, and the Right To Housing article talks about it as being a 1990s concept that would come later. He's clearly someone who did believe in affordable housing, but I'm not sure if the current phrasing is the best way to express that, unless there's another source tying this connection together more clearly. (EDIT: I see that you added this because PMC recommended it in the GA review. Well, up to you I suppose, I'd say to rephrase and/or not link, but it's fine no matter what your call is.)

• • Ultimately felt it was right to unlink it. Ty for looking that over! - G
• the heavily Black 37th District

I'm not sure this is quite what the source says? "This district contained the Seattle’s predominantly Black neighborhoods." Despite the typo, I think it's saying that to the extent Seattle had Black people, they lived here, but that doesn't mean it was "heavily Black" overall. Seattle had a bit of a reputation as being lily white outside the International District in the era, to my vague understanding. I think we need a better source if the 37th really was heavily Black.

• • Found a source. - G

• 1954 election

There are various schools of thought on the proper level of concision, but I think the current text is too concise, and will lead to readers having to click wikilinks to acquire enough context to understand what was really going on. As is, the comment on Charles M. Stokes looks like it might just be historical background about black politicians in Washington, and it's not immediately obvious that it's linked to the vacancy. Also, non-American readers may not realize that many state legislature districts elect the top 2 candidates and will be confused for why #3 sued #2. Finally, quoting a lawyer for the losing side tends to be a bit dubious in general - they often state the case as their clients understand it and is a highly partial account. (Not saying it can't also be true, but it's not a very impressive source in general.) In particular, based on what the article says, it sounds like the #3 person had a point - McAdoo's home really wasn't in the 37th district. (Of course, it's possible McAdoo's lawyers also had a point in that the rules might not have been enforced so strictly for a machine-blessed candidate.) I'd suggest something maybe like "Charles M. Stokes was elected to the Washington House of Representatives for the 37th district in 1950 and 1952 for two-year terms, but opted to run for State Senate instead in 1954. McAdoo ran in the Democratic Party primary for the seat that Stokes was vacating. His platform..." (And then have something about the top-2 nature of advancement.) But up to you.

• I did my best to reword this section. - G
  • Hmm, is it accurate that Stokes resigned? I checked the sources on his page and they don't mention a resignation and simply say that he served 3 terms (1950, 52, 56). The main source cited here says "Stokes had decided to step down in 1954" but I would probably read that as an implicit "stepping down", i.e. simply not running again for that office, rather than straight-up resigning. If nothing else, the mood is about a decision, which implies that for McAdoo specifically, all he knew was that Stokes would at some point leave (whether it be a belated resignation or as a result of his term timing out).
• He was a licensed architect in five jurisdictions; Alaska, the District of Columbia, Montana, Oregon, and Washington state.

This is quite a minor point. I understand that for less famous figures there's more room for minutiae, but I don't think that most architects / lawyers / etc. have the states they were certified for mentioned, unless it's somehow relevant (e.g. they didn't actually have a certification and were doing under-the-table architecture or the like). Maybe either remove it, or verify the relevance of this list. SnowFire (talk) 22:25, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• • I removed that part. - G

Okay, part 2.

• African-American

Style guides differ here on if a hyphen is merited, and you can't control categories or see also link to other Wikipedia articles, but I'd say to be consistent within this article. You use both the unhyphenated version and the hyphenated version; I'd say to just pick one.

• Picked the hyphenated one. - G
• he began to receive commissions designing private residences.

Mega-nit: The intent of this is clear, and feel free to keep it as-is if this is how it's expressed in architecture, but maybe "commissions to design private residences"? This could theoretically be misread as the commissions themselves somehow designing private residences.

• • Fixed. - G

• working nights and attending classes during the day but was forced to withdraw from the university for financial reasons

Arguing about commas is often a style issue not worth the time, but I'd say that despite all the earlier commas, to still include one after "day" to hint at the time gap.

• • Fixed. - G

• He chose to enroll in UW

Optional: Is it worth stating that yes, he and his family moved to Seattle? It's just that we said above that he relocated with his family to Portland, and it's not entirely uncommon to leave the family back and commute around on weekends or the like.

• • I couldn't get that to flow right, but I made it more heavily implied that he moved. - G

• 887 sq ft (82.4 m2), 620 sq ft (58 m2)

Meganit: Convert has a sigfig param, so I'd recommend {{convert|887|sqft|m2|abbr=on|sigfig=2}}. The extra 0.4 square meters is not really germane or relevant. Similarly, was that exactly 620 square feet, or just 620ish square feet? My guess is the latter, so I'd suggest to sigfig that conversion to just 1 and ~60 m^2.

• • Good idea, fixed. - G

• the integration of the design into the surrounding landscape

Is this from the Mumford article? It's not on Wikipedia library, alas. This is more side chatter than a request for change, but this is a little surprising... the "House of Merit" idea & the modular homes in Jamaica seems to suggest more "affordable & efficient" was McAdoo's usual goals, while "integrating into the landscape" suggests more of a bespoke, artisanal, and expensive approach to me (i.e. the Fallingwater's of the world). Did he really do both small homes that also integrated into landscapes and the like? Impressive if so!

• In the late 1960s, he returned to private practice full-time, where he specialized in civic and educational buildings such as the Southcenter Blood Bank (1970), the University of Washington Ethnic Cultural Center (1972), and the Queen Anne Pool (1977).

Side chatter: This is the source's fault not yours, but it's too bad that it's real vague as to what precisely McAdoo did for these buildings and what his role was. Did any of the other sources go into more detail on his 1970s career?

• • I couldn't find much on these. I think it's because his early career was highly publicized in architectural press, while by the time he was doing these big civic commissions he didn't really need the publicity to attract new clients. - G

Looks very solid overall, great work!

• @SnowFire: Sorry that took a second! I think I got to everything. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 05:33, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Thanks, looks good. I made one minor comment above on the political campaign, but should be good to go otherwise. SnowFire (talk) 04:23, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

    @SnowFire: Ok! Fixed that part too. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support. That said, I have two other comments that don't affect support status:
  • Why did you remove the "Personal life and political ventures" section header? I think it's kinda handy to have a section end on his death, and then clearly delineate the switch to a retrospective on the non-architectural, non-career parts of his life.
    • Accident, I switched it back. - G
  • I see that Gog the Mild suggested switching NAACP to its spelled out form, but I don't agree. MOS:ACRO1STUSE is a little unclear - it writes "If there is an article about the subject of an acronym (e.g. NATO), then other articles should use the same style (capitalisation and punctuation) as that main article" but then also in the next paragraph restricts acronym-only use to just to a short list of exceptions. I'm not 100% certain what the guideline is saying (the first sentence suggests honoring our article being at just "NAACP", the second for spelling it out) but the NAACP is clearly way closer to NATO IMO - they're known by the acronym 99.99% of the time in 2024, and even in the 1950s & 60s were generally known as just the NAACP. NATO isn't directly in the list, but I don't think there's anything unusual about using NATO unadorned either. I respect that you're getting conflicting advice here, but if Gog is right about the MOS, then I think the MOS should be updated - the old style of just "NAACP" is better and how sources would write it and how Wikipedia titles the article. SnowFire (talk) 02:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
    • Yeah, I'm inclined to agree there too; IMO, the fully-spelled name is significantly less recognizable than the acronym. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 02:41, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Having followed the link I think you are being very North-American-centric. The majority of English-speaking readers will have no clue what a NAACP is. The MoS actually lists the - handful of - exceptions to the in full at first mention rule. Remember that this is an encyclopedia; the reason we are writing is to explain things to readers that they didn't know before. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:01, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

That might be true, but these non-North American readers won't have a clue what the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People is, either. It is significantly more educational to learn the term they are actually known by and use, NAACP, then a vestigial name from the 1910s that they can't really change because it'd change the acronym. Readers can click a wikilink for more detail, if desired, just like all wikilinks to side mentions.

If we were really desperate to include more explanatory context for non-American readers, then "the NAACP, an African-American civil rights organization" would be more helpful, because I really cannot stress enough how vestigial their old name is. Colored was a neutral term in the 1910s but was dated by the 1960s and very dated now. There's a reason that it's not highlighted by the organization itself. SnowFire (talk) 15:54, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Kavyansh

• "A residence designed by McAdoo in Burien was declared the "Home of the Year" by the Seattle Times " — I've always believed and used in all my articles that if the title of a newspaper contains the word The, the, we shouldn't be omitting it. Same with " residence three times in her Seattle Times coverage"
• "Benjamin Franklin McAdoo Jr. was born in Pasadena, California to" — missing MOS:GEOCOMMA
• "He attended school at Pasadena High School " — repetition of school
• "In 1940, he won second place" — I would have used the word achieved, but its totally upto you. Just a suggestion.
• "with their newborn daughter to Portland, Oregon for McAdoo" — missing MOS:GEOCOMMA
• I have made some table formatting errors ([19]) per MOS:DTAB. Please refer to it. Center align all the references.
• Please check the formatting for sources. The Seattle Times should be italicizes in th sfn as well the sources.

Solid work! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 04:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

@Kavyansh.Singh: Thank you very much! I implemented all of this. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 05:33, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• Hi Kavyansh.Singh, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:01, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Sure, Support. Hope you are doing well, Gog! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 15:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

• "was declared the "Home of the Year" by The Seattle Times in association with the American Institute of Architects." "Home of the Year" for Seattle, for Washington, or some other area?
  • Clarified. - G
• "After designing a number of low-income houses and apartments throughout the 1950s, including eighty single-family houses in his "House of Merit" design". Having "design" twice in the clause, once as a verb and once as a noun, is a little confusing.
  • Fixed. - G
• "he participated in the NAACP". MOS:ACRO1STUSE says "an acronym should be written out in full for the first time, followed by the abbreviation in parentheses ... if it is used again in the article".

See my comment elsewhere on this. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:53, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I note that this has now been resolved. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:00, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• • Fixed. - G
• "Early life and education" The first sentence of this section should give a date of birth.
  • Fixed. - G
• "McAdoo grew up in a ..." "McAdoo" → 'McAdoo Jr.'
  • Fixed. - G
• "He then began work at a number of private firms in Los Angeles." Were any of these employments connected to architecture?
  • Clarified. - G
• "He entered employment at the firm of James J. Chiarelli and Paul Hayden Kirk". 1. Was this one firm or two? 2. Is it known either what the firm did or what McAdoo did while there?
  • Elaborated. - G
• "He was initially hired for remodels and alterations, designing seventeen such commissions during his first year of business." Maybe "designing" → 'undertaking'?
  • Fixed. - G

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• "Unlike other apartment complexes in the area, these apartments were not limited to White tenants." Did this have anything to do with McAdoo?
  • Clarified that McAdoo also owned these. - G
• "His 1955–1956 design for the Kenneth & Kimi Ota house, the residence of a Japanese-American family living in Rainier Valley, Seattle." This is a sentence fragment.
  • Fixed. - G
• "which had no enforced laws against Black property owners." This implies that Bothell had such statutes, but did not enforce them. Is this what you mean?
  • Source has weird phrasing on this, so I followed it more closely. - G
• "Such ventures were unsuccessful". "Such ventures" or 'This venture'?
  • Fixed. - G
• "He served as the coordinating architect". Is there a link for "coordinating architect", or could you give a brief in line explanation.
  • Clarified to avoid using the term. - G
• "the USAID". What is this?
  • Defined. - G
• "Upon returning to Seattle" Is it known when?
  • Clarified. - G
• The title of the table "Architectural designs by Benjamin F. McAdoo" suggests that what follows is the full list. I assume this is not the case, in which case it needs retitling.
  • I restricted the scale of the list to just designs mentioned in the article. If this is weird, I could take it out; I couldn't think of another clear criteria. - G

The list is fine. Maybe 'A selection of McAdoo's designs'? Or ' A sample ....' or similar?

"Select" works. - G

• "After his death, architects Garold Malcolm and Richard Youel continued his firm". Is it known if it still exists?
  • It lasted about twenty years, clarified. - G
• Titles in the References should consistently be in title case. (Eg, see Sprague, lower case c for "contributions".
  • Fixed. - G

Gog the Mild (talk) 15:39, 24 October 2024 (UTC) Okiedokie, @Gog the Mild:, thank you very much for your review. I'm glad to hear that you're feeling better, btw. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 02:07, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• Really good tweaks and responses. One come back above, and a last thought: Is McAdoo's cause of death known? Gog the Mild (talk) 14:03, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Gog the Mild Good idea on the list name; also, I couldn't find a cause of death mentioned in any of the obituaries or articles. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Query for the coordinators

@FAC coordinators: may I nominate another article? (also to minimize needing to bug yall in the future, should I just presume its okay to nom a second article when it gets up to the required amount of source and prose reviews?) Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Not yet. To start a second, as a rule of thumb, things need to be ticking well after three weeks or so and the nom have source and image passes and three general supports. There may be other reasons why the coordinators would not want a second nomination opening, but in this case that is moot as the nomination only has two general supports - Snowfire's and from someone called Gog. Feel free to ask again once this attracts a third general support. And this sort of thing is why we ask that a nominator check in separately each time they wish to open a second nom. Cheers. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:38, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh, apologies for being premature on that - I thought Kavyansh had responded but I misremembered. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 23:46, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

HF

Ill try to review this soon. Hog Farm _Talk 22:55, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• "That July, he joined the United States Marine Corps at Camp Roberts, California, where he continued to work as a draftsman." - where is the Marine Corps coming from? Both Cottrell-Crawford and Sprague say he was working for the Army Corps of Engineers. And Sprague refers to this as the "civil service". I highly doubt somehow who had formally joined the Marines would be allowed to go transfer to Kaiser in the middle of World War II
• "Benjamin McAdoo Sr. worked a variety of jobs, including as a general contractor," - where are you getting "general contractor"? Ref [3] state his father was an auto mechanic in 1917 and a hardwood floor contractor in 1930. Ref [1] also mentions tree hauling. This doesn't really fit well with what general contractor usually entails
• "After graduating in 1938, McAdoo attended Pasadena Junior College; at this time, he was living alongside his parents and siblings with his paternal grandmother, who ran a grocery store in the area." - Again, a bit nit-picky, but the source mentioning him living with his grandmother has this being according to the 1940 census; there doesn't seem to be evidence for when this living arrangment began, but the current phrasing of the article strongly implies this was ongoing in 1938
• "He became interested in architecture, motivated by his belief in fair housing and by his admiration for California African-American architect Paul R. Williams. " - both this and the lead imply that he became interested in architecture as a college student, but then there's Sprague p. 21 which has In ninth grade, he took a mechanical drawing class and, showing great promise in his drawing ability, focuse on becoming an architect from then on. Cottrell-Crawford does have him becoming interested in architecture in college, but I don't think we can just pick one source over the other here without a great reason, especially when Sprague is probably the stronger source
• "In the April of the following year, he left Chiarelli & Kirk to found his own practice, working from his apartment in the Capitol Hill neighborhood. " - this doesn't seem to be right. Sprague says his office was in the University District, Seattle. The version of Shaping Seattle Architecture on Wikipedia Library Project MUSE has the McAdoo chapter in a different page range (328-333) rather than the 50s cited in this article, but it appears to be the same source. It references the Capitol Hill office as being "after 1951"
• "McAdoo graduated with a Bachelor of Architecture degree on June 22, 1946" - your citations are off here. This is cited to Sprague, Dunham, and Mumford, but the exact date is found in none of this and is actually from Cottrell-Crawford
• "He participated in a small homes design competition in 1947, designing a 887 sq ft (80 m2) ranch house featuring a butterfly roof. Although the design did not receive the prize, it was reviewed favorably in a column in The Seattle Times." - why is this mentioned after his 1949 move? It would fit better in the chronology to have it earlier.
  • This question is still outstanding. Hog Farm _Talk 02:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
• "Financed with profits from his previous residence commissions and mortgage insurance from the Federal Housing Administration, " - is "Financed with [...] mortgage insurance" really the best phrasing? Mortgage insurance isn't a type of financing. It's a sort of secondary backing of the mortgage to allow to get the borrower to get a better financing rate, but it's not really financing per se. Instead the financing was provided by that mortgage company that he had previously rented office space from. And I'm not quite seeing where "financed with profits from his previous residence commissions" is coming from unless you're getting that from "As a successful profession, McAdoo began acquiring other properties in Seattle"
• "with around eighty constructed over the following three years" - actually four, per the source. '51, '52, '53, '54
• "he purchased an office building for his firm in 1951" - is "office building" really the best way to describe this? Sprague describes a house purchased and then converted into an office space, while "office building" usually implies something purpose-built
• "McAdoo and his wife chose to relocate from Montlake into a residence outside of the Seattle city limits in 1958," is from the article, but the cited source states By 1957, as new suburban residential tracts proliferated, McAdoo and his family chose to leave the Seattle city limits,. The source does talk about characteristics of Bothell in 1958, and doesn't directly say he moved in 1957 vs 1958, but I don't think we can use the "chose to relocate [...] in 1958" language when the source says the decision had been made by 1957
• "which had nonexistent or unenforced laws against Black property owners." - a nitpick, but the source has and restrictions on people of color may have been either nonexistent or laxly enforced. which is a somewhat weaker claim

Ready for Overseas and D.C. section, but I can't stay up any later or I'll have trouble getting around to work tomorrow morning. The source-text integrity isn't quite there; I'm at an oppose right now. I've been having to go line-by-line through here since I've found a number of sourcing issues and I really don't have the energy right now to keep doing that. Hog Farm _Talk 03:15, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your thorough review, Hog Farm. I'll try to address this over the next few days and get the source integrity into shipshape condition. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 03:33, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Hog Farm: Apologies for the delay; came down with a nasty bug. I went through and checked source-text alignment throughout the article. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 00:56, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• "He attended ceremonies for the Independence of Jamaica on August 6, 1962, alongside other American dignitaries such as President Lyndon B. Johnson" - I'd drop the specific date. This isn't direclty supported in the source, which just mentions participating in celebrations. The source very much leaves open the possibility that these ceremonies referred to in the source weren't only on the specific date of independence
  • Took out the date. - G
• I'm still confused by the citations of a page range of 50-51 for Mumford 2014 - were two different editions being used? The edition on the Wikipedia Library agrees with the later usage of pages like 329 and 331; while the 50-51 seems to be an outlier given that there is only a single chapter in this book focusing on McAdoo
  • Oops. I know exactly how this happened - McAdoo is the 50th chapter in the book, but the chapter headings kinda look like page numbers. Total brainfart there; fixed. - G
• "In D.C., McAdoo designed elements of the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts and the never-built National Fisheries Center and Aquarium, " - I'm not seeing where either source supports that the National Fisheries Center and Aquarium was never built
  • Huh. So, looking it to more, the aquarium was designed by Charles and Ray Eames, and Stone isn't mentioned at all.. I'm thinking that what McAdoo worked on was probably one of multiple competing designs for the project. Anyhow, it's not mentioned anywhere else, so I just removed it. - G
• "He designed the Queen Anne Pool in 1974–1977 as part of the Forward Thrust development project" - again, a bit of a nitpick, but the 1974-1977 date doesn't seem to be supported by the sources. The obit doesn't have a date, and PCAD and docomomo has 1978 (which appears to be the year the pool opened). Mumford has 1974-1978
  • Oh good catch. 1974–1978 is correct. - G
• "and a warehouse at the Naval Submarine Base Bangor" - a minor nitpick, but the source has that he designed a complex of warehouses, not just one building
  • Fixed. - G
• "The same year, he began hosting a weekly KUOW-FM radio show discussing racial issues, which ran until 1968" - are the sources saying that the radio program lasted until 1968, or his NAACP chapter presidency? The relevant bit from Houser is In 1964 he served as president of the Seattle chapter of the NAACP, and began broadcasting a weekly radio show focused on social issues. He maintained this post for four years. The PCAD source says he was NAACP chapter president from 1964 to 1968, so I wonder if that's what Houser is referring to by "post"
  • Very good catch there. I agree with your assessment that the post is probably the chapter presidency. Rephrased. - G

I think that's all from me for now; this is much better and I'll go ahead and strike the oppose. Some of these are fairly nit-picky. Hog Farm _Talk 02:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

• @Hog Farm: Thank you so much! Made more fixes. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 02:52, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
  • So where I am on this FAC is this: the various issues I have brought up are fixed from what I can tell. However, I have a personal thing where as a CPA IRL, if I've found a certain number of issues with something, I'm not going to sign off on it. At Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Strom Thurmond filibuster of the Civil Rights Act of 1957/archive1 I stood by the initial oppose, but I'm much more comfortable with this article than that one so I've struck the oppose. I'm not going to support this for promotion, but I don't have any objections to @FAC coordinators: promoting this and I expect a promotion to FAC to be the outcome here. Hog Farm _Talk 17:11, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

    Thanks for the review. I think this could benefit from an additional check for source-to-text integrity. I'll request one at WT:FACSR. FrB.TG (talk) 14:10, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments from JennyOz

No time for review but wanted to suggest these tweaks...

• and Benjamin F. McAdoo, Sr. - remove comma per MOS:SR
• large amounts of voters - numbers of?
• He attended ceremonies for the Independence of Jamaica in 1962, alongside other American dignitaries such as President Lyndon B. Johnson - Johnson was still VP in 1962

I have been enjoying reading these architect articles, thanks. JennyOz (talk) 03:11, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

JennyOz Oh thank you very much for these little fixes! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 04:41, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Source review: pass

Will pick this up shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 15:55, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you SchroCat, I always really appreciate your reviews. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 18:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Formatting

• Why does FN 16 (The Seattle Times 1981) have a page number, but FN 17 (The Seattle Times 1981) not?
• It's a really petty thing, but you list the names of the sources as part of the links (such as The Seattle Times has the harvid of The Seattle Times) - which is good. Why did you go with the harvid of SPI for Seattle Post-Intelligencer?

Those two tiny bits aside, the formatting is consistent and in line with policy and practice. - SchroCat (talk) 14:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• Fixed these! - G

Source analysis

• All sources used are reliable and high quality
• Additional searches have shown no sources unused or missing (with the caveat that I'm not a subject specialist, so don't have access or knowledge of offline specialist sources that may cover this area). - SchroCat (talk)

Text-to-source check

Given the comments of Hog Farm and the steer by FrB.TG, I'll cover this as well.

• To follow - SchroCat (talk) 14:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

For the later two, there is every possibility I've missed the point in the references, so if you can point me to it, that would be great.

• FN1, 2 & 3 (1): According to PCAD, the mother's name is "Alferetta Derousell" not "Alfaretta DeRoussel "; alternate first name spellings of "Alfravetta", "Alforetta" and "Alfretta". Alternate surname spelling is "Deroussell" – all the alternates should probably be listed in a footnote, just to cover all the bases.
  • Done. - G
• FNs 1, 2 & 4: Can you point out where it says his grandmother ran a local grocery store please
  • From PCAD; Benjamin. Jr.'s paternal grandmother, lived nearby at 674 South Fair Oaks. Carrie, according to the 1910 US Census, and was a merchant operating a retail grocery. -G
• FNs 1, 2 & 4: Can you point out where it says he continued to work as a draftsman with the Corp of Engineers?
  • Sprague, p. 21. In July 1942, McAdoo entered the civil service as a draftsman for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, stationed at Camp Roberts, California. - G
    • Excellent - thanks for both of those. I've had a long day and my eyes slipped right over those two bits. - SchroCat (talk) 18:55, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Done to half way through Architectural practice – will finish up shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 17:51, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Just three minor points to end on:

• "totaling 3,600 sq ft" The source says 3,700-square-foot, not 3,600\
  • Fixed. - G
• "staying in Jamaica for 18 months". Mahmoud says "two years between McAdoo's arrival and departure"
• I don't see in Mahmoud anything to support that he "did architectural work for the Department of State and the General Services Administration[8]" while in DC.
  • These are both in Mahmoud After 18 months in Jamaica, the family moved to Washington, D.C., where McAdoo did similar work with the State Department, and then with the General Services Administration, where, as Enid McAdoo remembers, “he got to work on the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts.” - G
    • Christ, how did I miss that chunk of text! - SchroCat (talk) 20:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I have been through the whole article line by line and checked every single sentence against the sources and this is the total of my findings - all minor, with a couple of typos and a couple where I suspect the info was from a different source that hasn't been cited at the specific point it should have been (something we've all done from time to time). - SchroCat (talk) 19:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@SchroCat: Thank you very much! Responded. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 20:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• Pass of source review. - SchroCat (talk) 20:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Roswell incident

Nominator(s): Feoffer (talk) 04:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

This article is about a conspiracy theory which alleges that the 1947 crash of a United States Army Air Forces balloon near Roswell, New Mexico was actually caused by an extraterrestrial spacecraft. With extensive polished sourcing, the article details the actual events of 1947, the later rise of UFO conspiracy theories, the emergence of the Roswell conspiracy theories, their evolution and eventual debunking. Feoffer (talk) 04:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• File:Marcel-roswell-debris_0.jpg: where is that tagging coming from? It's not consistent with what's at the source site. Ditto File:Ramey-dubose-debris.jpg
  • The images were published without copyright notice in July 1947 and never renewed, entering public domain. While previously-unpublished images in the UTA collection would fall under the blanket Creative Commons release, UTA can't actually assert copyright on a faithful 2d replica of a public domain image. Feoffer (talk) 06:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
    • Is it known that these particular images were published in 1947? I'm not seeing that at the source site either. If that can be shown, I'd suggest ditching the CC licensing on the basis of the images being PD. If it can't, though, the CC license UTA uses is BY-NC, not BY-SA which is what the images are currently tagged. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
      • fixed Ramey-dubose by adding first publication and ditch CC licensing. Feoffer (talk) 05:02, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

      UTA's stated license is probably not relevant. I don't see any reason they'd have the rights to the photo, so the license would be for the scanning and uploading. If the photos are in the public domain then the UTA license is not needed, but if the photos are not then the UTA license is not valid. J. Bond Johnson took both photos for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram on 8 July 1947. The Telegram and other papers ran the photos on the 9th and 10th. The Telegram didn't have a copyright notice. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:27, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

• File:Aztec-hoax-pic.png: the uploader is not the copyright holder here
  • Fixed, uploader field now reflects derivation from image published in 1950. Feoffer (talk) 06:50, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
• File:Screenshot_of_Alien_Prop_from_Roswell,_The_UFO_Cover_Up_(1994).jpeg needs a stronger FUR. Ditto File:Alien_Autopsy_Fact_or_Fiction_1995_screenshot_cropped.png, File:Jose_Chung_alien_autopsy_screenshot.png
  • Have improved the first. Open to more advice. Feoffer (talk) 16:10, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Also improved the other two. Feoffer (talk) 05:07, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

• File:Rosewell_Reports,_Volume_1.ogv: source link appears to go to an unrelated video, please check

• fixed Feoffer (talk) 04:49, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
• also renamed the file. Rosewell->Roswell Feoffer (talk) 05:18, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

• File:Roswell_Sign_01_(cropped).jpg: what's the copyright status of the sign? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:32, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

  Do you have advice on how I could find this out? The sign was created by the city as part of their 70th anniversary tourism campaign, is on public land, and there is no indication the city asserts copyright: NYTimes credits only their own photographer. Feoffer (talk) 05:12, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

• Is it known when the sign was erected? See commons:Commons:Public_art_and_copyrights_in_the_US. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

  Dug into this for you. The signs were created by EG Structural of Phoenix for the city of Roswell. It was formally unveiled in May 2017. Feoffer (talk) 05:28, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

  Updated description at Commons to reflect sign origin. Feoffer (talk) 12:59, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria and Feoffer: I swapped this image out for File:Roswell NM Main Street.jpg. The "alien" eyes applied to the streetlights are just a pair of common geometric shapes and not themselves copyrightable. I tried emailing the city and EGS last week, but didn't hear back from either one. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Support from HAL

Staking out a spot. Comments to come soon. ~ HAL333 17:53, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks in advance for feedback -- great username and sig. Feoffer (talk) 13:58, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

• I'm not a huge fan of the wording of "1947 crash of a United States Army Air Forces balloon near Roswell, New Mexico was actually caused by an extraterrestrial spacecraft". It implies that a UFO caused a balloon to crash.
• "metallic and rubber debris was" --> "were"
• "Trust in the US government declined and acceptance of conspiracy theories became widespread" - can you explain why this is the case? Maybe mention the Assassination of John F. Kennedy and Watergate — I think a mention of the latter is especially appropriate since you then use "Cosmic Watergate".
• "On September 20, 1980, the TV series In Search of..." — Can you mention that this episode was hosted by Leonard Nimoy?
• Stanton Friedman is linked more than once
• "decomposing from exposure and predators" — I think "scavengers" is more apt than "predators".
• I would wikilink Oliver Stone
• "Thomas DuBose... acknowledged the weather balloon cover story" — This sentence is confusing. He acknowledges that the balloon story, or that it was a cover? Or that it was a cover for Mogul? Or a saucer? Please clarify.
• "a New Mexico congressman" - Could you name him/her?
• "Santilli would admit years later" --> "Santilli admitted years later" per WP:WOULDCHUCK, and can you give the actual year of the admission?
• This issue pops up elsewhere:
  • "The Air Force would later describe the" --> "The Air Force later described the
  • "New Mexico emerged that would later form elements"
  • "alien bodies that would later become associated with Roswell"
  • "Independent researchers would find patterns"
  • "Doty would later say"
• Terminator 2 should be italicized, not put in quotations
• I would wikilink Kodachrome
• I would remove the months from "In September 2017," and from "In February 2020,". They're not necessary to the reader's understanding, are not given for most older dates and strike me as recentist.
• "weather balloon" is linked in the Project Mogul subsection, but not in its first mention much earlier...
• "Thomas DuBose" also has duplicate links but is still not linked in his first mention
• "Ufologists had previously considered" — "previously" is redundant since you use the past perfect

Very nice work. Kudos to you for tackling a subject like this. ~ HAL333 14:44, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Great points all! I think we've got 'em all. Feoffer (talk) 02:41, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Happy to support. ~ HAL333 05:35, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, just need to flag that I've coincidentally identified a copyvio concern related to a major contributor to this article. I have not assessed to what extent their contributions persist in the present version, but careful spotchecks will be warranted here. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria Thanks for looking into it! Glancing through diffs and running "Who Wrote That" (assuming I have the right editor) I see copyedits, references, formatting, and deletions. More scrutiny never hurts though, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  I also looked through the edits of the user with the copyvio (assuming I have the right one), but it's mostly deletions and ref polishing. Feoffer (talk) 10:33, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments by Borsoka

• On June 4, researchers at Alamogordo Army Air Field launched a long train of these balloons...the balloon subsequently crashed Why not "a balloon/one of the ballons subsequently crashe"?
• Where is Alamogordo Army Air Field located? (For instance, near X in state Y)
• Where is Brazel's ranch located?
• Publicity of Arnold's report incited a wave of over 800 sightings... I would avoid the verb "incite".

• I would also avoid the verb "trigger". Could a more neutral language be used? I think nobody could prove that Arnold's report triggered each sighting?

• Changed to Publicity of Arnold's report preceded a wave of over 800 similar sightings..., Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 21:01, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• Where is Roswell Army Air Field located?
• Where is Fort Worth Army Air Field located?
• Why is not Associated Press italicised?
• Where is Wright-Patterson Air Force Base located?

So far no major issues, more to come... Borsoka (talk) 06:04, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

• Link (and possibly decrypt) USAF when it is first mentioned.
• I would write "the alleged Majestic 12 group" instead of MJ-12 because the abbreviation is not introduced anywhere in the text.
• ..., many of whom still accepted earlier hoaxes like the Aztec crash,... I would delete it to avoid possible original synthesis.
• The reports of bodies came decades later. Delete, because the core of the statement is repeated in a following sentence ("The claims of alien bodies – made decades later by elderly witnesses,...")
• He identifies six distinct narratives... Could these be listed in a footnote?
• The 1994 film Roswell was based on the book UFO Crash at Roswell by Kevin D. Randle and Donald R. Schmitt. Delete (the info is covered twice in previous sections, and this section should not be an exhaustive list).
• Could section "Popular fiction" be expanded from international perpective?
• I think section "Statements by US Presidents" is the only weak point of this otherwise excellent article. As it is not introduced, it reads like a random collection of quotes about Roswell from randomly chosen US presidents. Borsoka (talk) 03:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• I am wandering whether the article could be expanded to become more international. As far as I know, Roswell is an important topic of conspiracy theorists all over the world. Borsoka (talk) 04:49, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  Great suggestions all! We've addressed them with the following exceptions:

  • Alamagordo, Roswell, and Ft. Worth are place names, so we can't add "near X" without being redundant (e.g. "Roswell Army Air Field, near Roswell".
  • Per desire for international fiction, search yielded no results. Also looked at French, German, Russian, and Japanese wikipedias, -- only one non-English fictional work mentioned, with only a minimal link to Roswell.
  • per desire for international influence of the story, searched was conducted, but it's unclear if RSes exist on its international influence. @Rjjiii might have more ideas on these last two points.

  • I added two British connections.[20] Borsoka, if I find more international coverage, I'll try to incorporate it and post back here. A lot of sources explicitly treat it as an American thing. Some talk about "American audiences".[21] This article about the discrepancy in Hollywood and Bollywood alien films says that the American "fascination with outer space can be credited to the infamous Roswell incident": [22] There is also a trend where major UFO narratives in other countries are given the moniker of "X's Roswell. Notably, the Valensole UFO incident is "France's Roswell", the Rendlesham Forest incident is "Britain's Roswell", and the Varginha UFO incident is the "Roswell of Brazil".Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 21:02, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks again for the feedback. Feoffer (talk) 04:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

There are two minor issues pending but they cannot prevent me from supporting the article's promotion, even if I know this article is only a new attempt by the US government to conceal its cooperation with blood-sucking grey aliens. The Truth Is Out There. Thank you for this thoroughly researched, well-written and interesting article. Borsoka (talk) 11:28, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Coordinator note

This has been open for five weeks and discussion seems to have dried up with two general supports. It's on the urgents list, but unless there's significant activity towards a consensus to promote in the next few days, it is liable to be archived. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 20:11, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

SC

Will comment shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 20:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

• "— Associated Press (July 8, 1947)[19]": I'm not sure about having a link to the file here: that's what the citation is supposed to do
  • Done, linked only from the citation, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• "Bill Moore": Is there only one person called 'Moore' in the article? If so, the name "Bill Moore" doesn't need to be given six times in addition to the use twice of 'William "Bill" Moore': Just 'Moore' after the first time will suffice.
  • Done somewhat. There is also a "Charles B. Moore" who was involved in the 1947 incident, worked for Project Mogul, and is cited in the article. "Bill Moore" is specified in several sections still, but I've changed the subsequent mentions in those sections to just "Moore", Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• Ditto Stanton Friedman
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• Ditto Kevin Randle
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• Ditto Donald Schmitt
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• "The most significant witness was Jesse Marcel": this is a bit of editorialising. I think it best to say according to who
  • I've reworked this instead to quote the book and to be more objective.[23] Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• Your capitalisation on "army" is a little awry. Unless it's a formal name of a unit or camp, etc, general use of "the Army subsequently", "the Army's weather balloon", "captured by the Army", "the Army to a second crash site on the ranch, where the Army personnel", etc should all be in lower case; for "Army Intelligence officer", both terms should be lower case, per MOS:MILITARY
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• "In 1991, Kevin Randle and Donald Schmitt published UFO Crash at Roswell.[136] The 1991 book": I'm not sure why 1991 is repeated in the second sentence
  • Done, "The 1991 book" changed to "It", Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• "organised" -> "organized"
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Hope these help. - SchroCat (talk) 09:56, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate it SchroCat; I think I've resolved these concerns in the article, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 07:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support All good on prose. - SchroCat (talk) 08:01, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley

• You describe the balloon as crashed at the end of the first paragraph, but I think you need to make this clear at the start.
  • Changed "balloon" to "balloon debris" in the lead, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 08:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• "they lost contact within 17 miles (27 km) of W.W. "Mac" Brazel's ranch near Corona, New Mexico". This is unclear. They lost contact with all the balloons? With the one that crashed? This needs clarifying.
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 08:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• "Amid the first summer of the Cold War,[7] press nationwide covered Kenneth Arnold's June 24 account". How did Arnold get involved? You imply below that at this stage the debris had not been reported.
  • He was involved only indirectly in creating the idea of a flying saucer. Would trimming things down like this be more clear: "Amid the first summer of the Cold War, press nationwide covered Kenneth Arnold's June 24 account of what became known as flying saucers, objects which allegedly performed maneuvers beyond the capabilities of any known aircraft. Publicity of Arnold's report preceded a wave of over 800 similar sightings. With no phone or radio, Brazel was initially unaware of the ongoing flying disc craze," → "Amid this first summer of the Cold War, nationwide press coverage of the earliest flying saucer report preceded a wave of over 800 similar sightings. With no phone or radio, Brazel was initially unaware of the ongoing flying disc craze," or is it something that needs to be explained in this article? Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 08:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• According to the article on Arnold, 24 June was not the date of a report by him, but the date he claimed to have seen his own UFO. If this is correct, it should be explained. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

  Gotcha, I've tried to better explain this in a recent edit[24] and have left the June dates out of this article as somewhat out of scope. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 05:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

• "Nevertheless, belief in a UFO cover-up". "in UFO cover-ups"?
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 08:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• You refer to The Roswell Incident, Berlitz and Moore before you introduce the book. This needs explaining and rearranging.
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 08:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• "In an interview with Mac Brazel's son, William Brazel Jr. described how the military arrested his father and "swore him to secrecy". If there are reliable sources, I think it is worth clarifying that Mac Brazel died before interest revived in the Roswell incident, so all accounts of his story were second hand.
  • Done, added some bits on this, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 08:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Thanks Dudley Miles! At the nominator's request,[25] I'll try to respond to concerns while they deal with an emergency out in the real world. I think I've addressed all but one of these in the article and look forward to future notes, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 08:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

• "Dennis provided false names for the nurse who allegedly witnessed the autopsy." Name or names?
  • Done, added details, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• "citing a new location for the alien craft recovery, including a new group of archaeologists not connected the Barnett story." The last part is ungrammatical and does not make sense. A group of archaeologists was a location?
  • Done, clarified, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• "The initial 1994 USAF report admitted that the weather balloon explanation was a cover story, but for Project Mogul, a military surveillance program." I would leave out ", but" - or expand as not for aliens but for Mogul.
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• "Accounts of alien recovery sites are contradictory and not present in any 1947 reports." This is not needed as you have made it clear all along.
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• "The military, charged with protecting the classified project, claimed that the crash was of a weather balloon." You have already said this several times and do not need to say it again.
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• "Roswell Incident timeline". This heading does not make sense as the table is not a timeline.
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• "features a character Roger who is an alien that crashed at Roswell". This is ungrammatical. "Who" implies a person and "that" an object.
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• I think it is better to have separate sections for notes and citations rather than a single reference section, but that is a personal view. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Thanks again Dudley Miles. I think I have addressed all of the concerns above. Regarding the footnotes, I've reformatted them so that one section has only notes and one has only short citations. All full citations have been moved down to "Sources". Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Looks fine now. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Source review: Pass

Formatting

• I'll pick up on this shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 08:01, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• I'm not sure all the quotes in the refs are entirely necessary. Can you check at WP:FOOTQUOTE and then examine each of the quotes against the criteria to see if they fit?
  • Done. Most of those were left over from earlier efforts to collaborate when not all editors had copies of sources. The remaining 6 give the full context of quotes in the article, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• If the quote at FN 176 remains, it should be in sentence case, not all caps
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• The capitalisation of the sources should be consistent, which this isn't. While most are in 'start case', there are a few in sentence case
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk)
• Some of the words in start case should be in lower case (I'm looking at FNs76 and 79 as examples, where Up, That, Over and Of should be lower case: these are just two examples, however, and you need to check in both refs and sources for other transgressions)
  • Done, I think it's all title case now. "That" and "Over" both have four letters?[26] The 1–3 letter minor words are all lowercase. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
    • MOS:5LETTER says to lower case prepositions with up to four letters, but capitalise for five or more. - SchroCat (talk) 04:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

      Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 23:55, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• FN65: Is the word really rendered as "Ufo" in AmEng? You have it as "UFO" elsewhere
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• Why are some newspaper and magazine articles listed in the references and some in the sources?
  • ?: Older versions of this article had primary news coverage cited inline with full citations, so I kept doing so per WP:CITEVAR. Do I need to make all inline citations into shortened footnotes for FAC? Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
    • Consistency of approach is key. I've seen all in references, all in sources and those only used once in the refs and those used multiple times in the sources. As long as there is a logic to it, and as long as you are consistent in how that logic is applied, there is flexibility on the point. - SchroCat (talk) 04:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

      Done, I've separated the full and short citations. There was some general consensus for that method in the talk page archives, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Some of your newspaper sources have locations, some don't: is there a reason for that? If not, ensure consistency
  • Done, using location only for books now, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• Associated Press (2013), Deseret News (1947), Entertainment (2013) and TIME (1997): these are not needed before the source details – they are just repeating what is in the properly formatted source
  • ?: What is the expected way to place them clearly in alphabetical order? I see some pages do something like |author=Associated Press and am trying to avoid that, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk)
    • Normally by title (which is what appears first in the citation), so "Associated Press (2013)" would be sorted on "Roswell Author". - SchroCat (talk) 04:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

  Done, went with the first word or two, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• What are the publication details for Cordero?
  • Done, added publication, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• Friedman & Berliner, you don't need the words "Originally published" – just lave the year in the orig-date field
  • Done; as a note the template's documentation explicitly asks editors not to do this, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• Frost & Laing publisher location should be "Abingdon, Oxfordshire", not "Oxfordshire, England"
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• ISBNs should be consistently displayed (you have, for example, the following formats: 978-0-8131-2568-8, 978-0-415-69060-7, 9780063279773 and 978-1134962525).
  • Done, converted to 13-digit with hyphens. This seems a common request for FAC, but the template's documentation advises against doing this, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• G.P. Putnam's should have a space between the initials
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• The location for Gulyas should be "Luton, Bedfordshire"
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• Knight publisher location should be "Abingdon, Oxfordshire"
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• Kottmeyer publisher location should be "Abingdon, Oxfordshire"
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• May publisher location should be "Cham, Zug"
  • Done, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
• You have (both in the body and in the refs "U.S." and "US". Unless it's a title or formal name, best to make consistent

That may be it on the formatting, but I'll take another spin after you've sorted these. I'll also do the literature checks on the next part too. - SchroCat (talk) 19:57, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks SchroCat, I've done most of these. There are two where I had questions about what the expectation is, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Questions answered and I've added a point about the prepositions. - SchroCat (talk) 04:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I think I've done all of these now, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 00:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Source reliability and coverage

• UFOs and conspiracy coverage are normally a bit of a nightmare in terms of sourcing, but it looks like you've done well in keeping to reliable sources. I'll get back on this part soon. - SchroCat (talk) 04:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
• I am not a specialist in the area, so don't have a full grasp of every aspect of the literature, so I've tried to take a conservative and cautious approach to requirements.
• Going through the sources, I see that all—as far as I can tell—are reliable; all are being used appropriately.
• Additional research into any unused sources is complicated by the subject matter, but those sources that have not been used are of the unreliable type that shouldn't be here anyway. - SchroCat (talk) 06:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

  I appreciate you looking through this stuff and also the kind words. Yes, it's a "nightmare" to look for sources. Like, there are a couple of books by Dr. Michael D. Swords that at-a-glance look good, but he was a professor of natural sciences who retired and started writing WP:PULP history that speculates about a vast alien coverup. There is self-published skeptical research by Robert G. Todd and Timothy Printy that has to be cited only to the extent that the published WP:RS use it. For some conspiracy theory books that were not covered like The Roswell Report by Eberhart and Top Secret/MAJIC by Friedman, the multi-colored chart in the talk page archives shows that most reliable sources didn't place any weight on those works. Thanks again, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 06:29, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks for the changes: I'm happy to pass the source review - SchroCat (talk) 06:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• Hi SchroCat and thanks for that. As a first-time nominator this article will need a source to text veracity check and a plagiarism check. Would you be able to oblige? To the extent that these are not already covered above anyway. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Sure, no problems; I'll do that shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 15:21, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Boot Monument

Nominator(s): ‍Relativity ⚡️ 22:12, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

This article is about a strange monument located in Saratoga National Historical Park, New York. It is shaped like a boot. However, the monument's honoree is never mentioned on the monument because his name was Benedict Arnold, someone who betrayed the Continental army to the British army. I've brought this article from Start-class to GA-class (review), and then had it reviewed for A-class, which it passed. I think that it's now ready for FAC. ‍Relativity ⚡️ 22:12, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Suggest adding alt text. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:26, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

• Working Sorry, I'm inexperienced with alt text. I'm working on reading up on how to add that to an image in an infobox. Hopefully I'll find out soon. ‍Relativity ⚡️ 02:59, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• I just added draft alt text for the two images. Relativity, feel free to edit the text as you see fit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 21:39, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Matarisvan

I was a reviewer at the ACR and can support the article for promotion to FA class. I also did the source review and spot checks at the ACR which passed, I can do these again if needed. Matarisvan (talk) 19:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments

• "continued to grow ever more bitter towards the Continental Army when he was passed over for promotion, lost his business, and he was court-martialed" => "continued to grow ever more bitter towards the Continental Army when he was passed over for promotion, lost his business, and was court-martialed"

• Done

• Link Arnold on first use in body

• Linked in Background section; not sure if I need to link it elsewhere

• "American Major General Benedict Arnold had contributed to both Battles of Saratoga" - can we get a bit more context around this? I doubt that almost anyone outside the United States has the faintest idea what/when the Battles of Saratoga were, so you need to explain that this occurred during the American Revolutionary War and potentially even add that this was fought between the Americans and British

• added "two crucial battles of the American Revolutionary War that took place near Saratoga, New York."

• "a writer of several military histories about the Battle of Saratoga" - singular? It was plural earlier

• changed to "battles"

• "the only monument in Saratoga National Park that does not say the name of its honoree" - as a monument can't speak I would suggest that "show the name" would be better

• Done

• "The toe of the Boot Monument was stolen by college boys on a visit" - any idea when this was? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:01, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

• As I stated in the ACR, unfortunately no. All of the sources that were used in that little section date from 1927-1931, but a specific date is never mentioned. ‍Relativity ⚡️ 18:01, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

• On the last point, I think you should at least state that the "mysterious informer" bit occurred in 1931, because that seems indisputable. Currently there's nothing to give any sort of timeframe whatsoever within the entire 130+ year history of the monument...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:02, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

  @ChrisTheDude: Done. Thanks for the review! ‍Relativity ⚡️ 00:45, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:27, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

• "However, at the end of the conflict, Arnold's leg and horse were shot. When the horse fell, Arnold's leg shattered." This doesn't really make sense, it is given almost in bullet point. It needs unpacking a litle and expressing in full prose.

• I tried changing it to "While fighting at the Battle of Bemis Heights, Arnold's left leg was severely injured after it had been shot and crushed by his horse, which had been hit by gunfire as well.". Let me know your thoughts.

How's about something like 'While fighting at the Battle of Bemis Heights, Arnold was shot and severely injured in his left leg. His horse was also hit by gunfire and fell on Arnold, crushing his already injured leg.'? Gog the Mild (talk) 13:08, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I like it :). Done

• "This contributed to Arnold's bitterness ... This along with the fact that his ..." Could we avoid two consequecutive sentences starting with "This"?

• Both sentences changed

• Also, suggest rephrasing the first 'Along with his combat wounds, business troubles, Congress having promoted some rival and younger generals ahead of him, and a court-martial which resulted in him being convicted of two minor charges of using his role as military commander of Philadelphia to make a profit, this being overlooked caused Arnold to develop a growing bitterness towards the revolutionary cause.' or similar.

• Changed to "In addition, his combat wounds, business troubles, the promotion of rival and younger generals by Congress, and a court-martial conviction of two minor charges of profiting off of his military commander of Philadelphia role further angered Arnold.", although I'm not sure how I feel about it.

"in his report of the aftermath of the battle". Delete "of the aftermath", I assume the report was on the whole battle. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:20, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• Would 'which angered Arnold. In addition, his combat wounds, business troubles, the promotion of rival and younger generals by Congress, and a court-martial conviction of two minor charges of profiting off of his military commander of Philadelphia role further embittered him.' work better for you?

Better, yes. I've changed it.

• "with Sir Henry Clinton finally offering". Introduce Clinton.

• I added "British General." Hopefully that's enough...

• "and remained as a general there until the war ended." Could we be told the year it ended?

• Done

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• "In a Saratoga Monument Association (SMA) meeting in July of 1882". Introduce the SMA.

• Done

• "There were no objections to the stake." It is a little unclear by this.

• Tried "No one at the meeting objected to the stake being placed"

• "The monument underwent restoration after Adolph S. Ochs, publisher of The New York Times, financed it." Is it known when this restoration took place?

• As I said above, unfortunately no. All of the sources that were used in that little section date from 1927-1931, but a specific date is never mentioned.

• but it was later moved after further research as to where Arnold injured his leg, which was the more southern end of the main redoubt line." This is not clear and could probably be usefully rephrased.

• Tried "The monument was originally located further to the north at the top of the hill at the Breymann Redoubt site, but after further research as to where Arnold injured his leg, the monument was moved further south to where the main fortifications of the redoubt were"

Suggest removing the second "further", but otherwise that looks good.

Removed

• "Appearance" section. This should start with an overall description - not with the inscription. This could be resolved by swapping the first and second paragraphs of the section

• Done

• References: article titles should consistently be in title case, regardless of how they appear in their original.

• Done

Gog the Mild (talk) 18:31, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: I think I've addressed everything you've brought up above. Thank you for taking the time to review! ‍Relativity ⚡️ 22:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Grand. A couple of come backs and suggestions above. If I don't respond to something it means I am content. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:20, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: Addressed everything. Thanks again ‍Relativity ⚡️ 01:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Source review: pass

I'll do this in a little bit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 21:31, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Here are a few comments to start:

• Aryes should be Ayres

• Fixed

• Ayres: I recommend replacing the url with this one that links directly to the book listing, rather than to a word search within the book.

• Fixed

• I can't find the Ayres book in WorldCat, but I can find a 2006 print book with a similar name by the same author. Is the 2008 e-book a less-distributed update on the 2006 print book?

• I suppose so, although I'm not 100% sure. There's a 2006 edition that has less pages than the 2008 edition.

• Ducharme and Fine: the pages parameter should show the page numbering, not the number of pages. For this entry, it should be 1309–1331, not 23.

• Fixed

• Ducharme and Fine: Social Forces appears to be published in Chapel Hill, NC. Where did you find the publication place to be Athens, GA?

• I believe that I had seen that Ducharme and Fine were both from the University of Georgia, and found that the university was located in Athens. Fixing now.

• Duling: I recomment this url in place of the one the article currently uses, for the same reason as the one above for the Ayres book.

• Fixed

• Frothingham: This listing makes it seem like it is for an article called "The Turning Point of the Revolution" by Frothingham and and Nickerson, whereas it is a review by Frothingham of Nickerson's book The Turning Point of the Revolution. You should remove Nickerson as author of the article and change the article title to "Reviewed Work: The Turning Point of the Revolution Hoffman Nickerson". Also add the full page range.

• I'm not sure how I messed this up, but this citation is for the actual book by Hoffman Nickerson. Oops. Hopefully I've fixed that accordingly.

I'll continue looking through the sources and add more comments later. Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Here are a few more:

• Wikilink Benson John Lossing

• Done

• Lossing: add New York, New York as location of publication.

• Done

• Lossing: I recommend using this link.

• Done

• Lossing: the url goes to volume 2. If the citation is to that volume, then add the volume number to the works cited listing.

• Added volume number

• Lossing: In a works cited list otherwise entirely composed of publications from the 20th and 21st centuries, this work stands out. Is there not a newer work that can support the claim that Arnold fled to New York to join the British?

• Yes, Philbrick's book works as well. Should I replace it?

• I recommend that you do. WP:OLDSOURCES indicates that newer scholarship should be preferred over older. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed

• I recommend Wikilinking Savas Beatie. It's a redirect to the founder of the company, which is not the most helpful, but I suppose there's a possibility someone will convert that redirect into a real article someday.

• Linked

• Murphy: I recommend using this link.

• Done

• Tonsetic: I recommend this link.

• Done

• Williams: I recommend using this link.

• Done

• Citation 5 is Luzader 2008, p. 388–390 but should be "pp."

• Fixed

• Citation 14 is Randall 1990, pp. 448–540. Is that supposed to be 448–450? 122 pages is way too long a range for this citation to be useful.

• I'd added the wrong pages anyways so I've fixed it now.

• This citation (citation 13 now) still gives 448–540 as the page range. That range is way too long to be helpful to the reader. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I've lost access to the book, but I'll message someone or ask at WP:TREX t. rex... :) to see if they know which pages that appears on specifically.

@Dugan Murphy: Done ‍Relativity ⚡️ 02:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

• Leopold: I recommend using a citation template like Template:Cite document to fix the formatting issues.

• Done, but now there's no link to the actual document. Is that okay?

• Oh, that url is important. I just changed it myself to Template:Cite report, which supports the inclusion of a url and archive url. The source listing has the important information and it is formatted better, so I think it's good now. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you!

I'll add more later. Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:53, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

This is the rest of my comments:

• MOS:DATETIES tells me the date format for both the body and the citations should MDY instead of DMY. The exception listed there for articles on the modern US military, including biographical articles related to the modern US military doesn't seem to apply well to a history marker commemorating an 18th-century figure.

• I think I've now fixed all of the instances of dmy.

• When using Template:Poem quote, don't use the source parameter for the citations. That parameter is for the name of the person being quoted, which the reader already knows is the monument. Instead, move the citations to the main body so they attach to the end of the inscription, rather than appear on a new line, preceded by an emdash.

• Moved. Is that what you're looking for?

• I just moved the citations myself. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:19, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you (again)

• Watson: Add a publication place since this is not a super well-known publication.

• Added

• I recommend piping The Telegraph Wikilink so "(Nashua, New Hampshire)" doesn't show up in italics.

• Done

• "Find Clue to Missing Monument": Wikilink goes to wrong paper.

• It does? For me it goes where it should. Where does it go for you?

• It's the second use of that newspaper article, which is currently citation 28. The Wikilink goes to The Daily Telegraph instead of The Telegraph (Nashua, New Hampshire). You should use "ref name" anyway so both citations show up as one in the references list. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:19, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed

• "May Find Toe of Only Statue to a Left Leg": Since there's no Wikilink for the newspaper, I recommend adding the publication city.

• Done

• Thompson: add publication date.

• Done

• Rather than including "(U.S. National Park Service)" in the web page title, you list National Park Service in the publisher parameter.

• Done

• "Digital Collections": It would be helpful to add New York State Archives using the publisher parameter. Also, capitalize "dedicated". Also, why is this the only web item without an archive link?

• Added publisher, capitalized, and added archive link.

• If The Washington Post is Wikilinked, so should The New York Times.

• Linked

• Coe: Capitalize the article title.

• Done

• I would say you should pipe The Evening Tribune Wikilink, but it goes to the wrong paper anyway. If there isn't a Wiki article for this paper, you should add Providence as the publication place.

• Unlinked and added location

• Duffus's initials appears to be R.I., not R.L.

• Fixed

• I'm of the opinion that information in the infobox shouldn't need citations because it should only summarize information that is already cited in the body. In that regard, I recommend adding to the body the monument's location within the historical park (that info seems to be indicated in the last sentence of the 3rd paragraph of the History section, but it says it is in "Saratoga National Park", not Saratoga National Historical Park, as the lead and infobox indicate. Anyway, once that information is clearly indicated in the body, I think you can remove all citations from the infobox because all that info is already cited in the body.

• Done

Summary: Everything in the works cited list are either books held by university libraries (with the semi-exception of Ayres, per comment above) or articles in academic journals. The inline citations includes a few other sources, which all seem reliable. There's an impressive breadth of scholarship and journalism represented in this article for how short it is. Earwig finds plagiarism unlikely. Most of the similarities it can find are quotes. Citations are consistently formatted with the exception of minor issues, outlined above. Overall, the sources look great and I think all the issues above are very fixable. Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:22, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@Dugan Murphy: I think that I've addressed all of your concerns above, although I have a few questions about the comments you left about Leopold's source, Template:Poem quote, and "Find Clue to Missing Monument". This is a very impressive review and thank you for taking the time to do it! ‍Relativity ⚡️ 00:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

No problem. I'm happy to see articles about esoteric history markers being improved. I've responded to a few things that still need work. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:19, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing a few more things. At this point, I think the only thing holding back this source review from passing is the Randall 1990 page range issue above. Dugan Murphy (talk) 12:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Great work with this article, Relativity! I see no other issues holding back this source review from passing. I have an FAC nomination of my own that needs more attention. If you are able to take a look, I would appreciate it. You'll find it here. Dugan Murphy (talk) 12:54, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

SC - Support

A marker for now. - SchroCat (talk) 16:55, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

• "The most accepted version of Arnold's contributions,[2] supported by Arnold biographer James Kirby Martin,[3] is that he led troops on the battlefield." The references here are in an odd position. Ref two is only supporting the first seven words of the sentence, while the final eight words are not supported by either of the citations that are supporting it. It would be better to move both to the end of the sentence where they will be supporting everything they need to.

• Done

• "Arnold to start making communications with": This is a bit clunky. Would "Arnold started to communicate with" be an improvement?

• I'm not sure. It sounds a bit odd with the "caused" in front. I changed it to "caused Arnold to start communicating with" though— let me know your thoughts

• "These troubles, along with the fact that his wife, Peggy Shippen, came from a family of Loyalists, caused Arnold to start making communications with the British army, with British general Sir Henry Clinton finally offering Arnold £20,000 (equivalent to £3,353,000 in 2023) for the capture of West Point,[11] a fortification that was important to the control of the Hudson River" This is a monster sentence of sixty words. There are a few places where it could be split in two, but I think that after "British army" would be the best place for a full stop.

• Fixed

• You have "British general" Clinton but "British Major" Andre – consistent formatting would be good

• Fixed— capitalized "General"

• "July of 1882": just "July 1882" would be more in line with the MOS

• Fixed

• Caption of "The Boot Monument from the back": "The reverse of the Boot Monument" may be a bit better?

• Changed

• "It never mentions Arnold": ->"It does not mention Arnold". Even better would be to reframe the whole sentence as "Because of Arnold's defection to the British it does not mention him by name"

• Reframed

• "(see damnatio memoriae)": Dropping a Latin tag, unexplained, in brackets into the prose isn't the best way to deal with it. Either inline ("in an example of damnatio memoriae—Latin for "condemnation of memory"—etc") or include as a footnote.
• Additionally, if it's in Latin, you should use a ... template, which also has the benefit of italicising it
• "Similarly to how Arnold's name does not appear on the Boot Monument because of his betrayal to the British side, the Saratoga" is a bit cumbersome and wordy: "As with the absence of Arnold's name from the Boot monument, the Saratoga" would be better for readers. Again, the two references are floating in the middle of the sentence, not supporting the final part of the sentence - probably best to move them to the end of the sentence.

• Fixed

An interesting piece. I hope these help. - SchroCat (talk) 15:52, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• @SchroCat: Definitely helped. Thank you for giving it a read! I had one minor qualm with your second point, but otherwise, all is resolved (I hope). ‍Relativity ⚡️ 02:50, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support All good from me. - SchroCat (talk) 06:02, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Spotcheck

Spot-checking this revision: * 6 Can't access this source, but going by commons:Template:PD-US-expired it should be out of copyright, which means that a) you might want to link to a free version, or as Google Books to make its version public and b) is it that good of a source if it's this old?

• I linked to a different Google Books version, which has a free pdf of the book. On the age standpoint of the source, there are other sources in the article that are of a similar or slightly older age, so I'm hesitant to remove it, but I can probably replace it. Let me take a look...

• So I've looked through many sources and I was unable to find a source that supports the fact that Gates' orders reached Arnold after the battle had ended.

Seems like the emailed version checks out.

• 9 Can't access this source.
• 10 Can't access this source.
• 19 Doesn't say he was a major general of the New York State Militia.

• I couldn't find a reliable source that said specifically that he was a major general of the New York State militia, so I altered the text slightly and supported it with a source that was already in use.

• 20 Doesn't say that de Peyster was a historian.

• Added source; see above

• 22 OK
• 23 OK
• 25 Google Books supports most, save for 1975.
• 26 Google Books supports.
• 27 OK
• 31 Partly supported by the Google Books snippet.
• 32 OK
• 35 OK

* 37 Can't access this source.

• 39 OK
• 41 Is two-stars = major general?

• The two-star part is actually supported by citation 42, so I moved citations 40 and 41 to where citation 42 is located. To answer your question, yes, two-star does mean major general, so I've clarified that.

• 42 OK

* 44 Can't access this source.

• 47 Can't access this source.
• 49 Can't access this source.

By the by, I don't think that the New York Times requires an ISSN.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

• @Jo-Jo Eumerus: I think that I've addressed everything you brought up here, unless I've missed something. Thank you for doing the spotcheck! ‍Relativity ⚡️ 04:10, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

  Um, yeah, I wasn't clear - the sources I can't access also need to be verified. That means that either a) an uninvolved editor with access checks them or b) you send me copies of the pages questioned. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:01, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Jo-Jo Eumerus: So slight problem. I don't have email enabled, and I don't know how else to send you some of the sources which would be tricky to get access to. What do you suggest I do? ‍Relativity ⚡️ 03:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

  I've seen people using them on temporary Google Drives and then post a link. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:15, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

  Bit the bullet and added an email on file. Working... ‍Relativity ⚡️ 03:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Five Nights at Freddy's: Help Wanted

Nominator(s): Fathoms Below (talk) 20:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

This article is about a virtual reality game released as part of the Five Nights at Freddy's franchise. Last year after I helped promote the original game to FA status, I've been curious on whether another FA could be made with this franchise. This game probably has the best chance overall. In summary, Help Wanted adapts the first five games in the series in an anthology format, while also including some new minigames. So let's see what we can do here. Fathoms Below (talk) 20:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Vacant0

Will review. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:44, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

• Add translated titles for Ref 1, 3, 6, 8, 26
• Change Ref 22 website to UploadVR

Done second point, @Vacant0, is there a specific policy requiring the translation of the source titles? Just curious, because I'm not sure if that would be required. My previous FACs used a few non-English sources and I wasn't asked to translate the titles. Fathoms Below (talk) 18:12, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm not aware of one, but I might be wrong. I know that there's a policy about foreign quotations, but not foreign titles. I was told to add translated titles at a GA review some time ago, so I've been doing it since then. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 18:17, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I checked around at some pertinent policies and guidelines (WP:NOENG, and WP:FOOTQUOTE) and it seems like translating the titles into English is not required, though quotes not in English should be translated to English. I might ask around and see if translating the titles to English is preferable or if they should be kept as-is. Fathoms Below (talk) 18:29, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

That's fine then. I do not see it is an issue that should bar the article from becoming FA. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 21:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

The prose is relatively short so I'll go through and read, and leave any recommendations if I spot any. If the article does not receive a source check, you can ping me and I'll do that too. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 21:20, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

• "Help Wanted is a virtual reality survival horror game" – It's up to you, but I'd change Help Wanted to Five Nights at Freddy's: Help Wanted.

Done

• Optionally wikilink virtual reality (it's already wikilinked in the lede, so why not do it in the body too?)

Done

• Add (VR) as the abbreviation of virtual reality in the same first sentence.

Done

• Jump scare is wikilinked twice. Remove the second wikilink.

Done

• Possibly explain the warped graphics element.

The reviewer says "distorted visuals" and there isn't much that I could find that went into detail on the graphics.

• Who published the game?

Scott Cawthon via his company ScottGames. I'll add that to the infobox

• I'll look at the lede and reception tomorrow.
• There's not too much information about the sequel, so per WP:VGLAYOUT it can stay where it is right now under the Reception section.
• Lede: The downloadable content called Curse of Dreadbear.

reworded

• Reception:
  • I personally feel like the wording could be slightly improved.

A lot of the sources weren't in English and it was hard to summarize their thoughts. This section was the one that I thought might need some extra eyes

I'll have a deeper look in the next few days and leave some comments that could improve the section. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

• • "UploadVR called it a worthy adaptation or the franchise's games" I assume this is a typo.

Done

• • IGN Italy should be italicised.

Done

• • "the power of the jumpscares"?

Should I change it to "effectiveness"?

Yes, that sounds better. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

• • "Some reviewers called the jumpscares effective, but said that they would become repetitive over time" – remove said

Done

• • Optionally move "The game was nominated for the Coney Island Dreamland Award for Best AR/VR Game at the New York Game Awards in 2020." to the first paragraph.

Done

• • Do we have reception for the sequel?

Metacritic lists only one review for the sequel from UploadVR. Should I include it?

Sure, why not. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 10:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I couldn't find a great way to integrate the review to be honest. Is there a way you think I should add it somehow. Say something like "UploadVR called the game ___ and ___?" Just curious, I just want to make sure that I'm doing this right.

Vacant09, a few replies above. Fathoms Below (talk) 22:07, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I'll go paragraph by paragraph.

• The first paragraph does not have any issues.
• Second paragraph:
  • What do you mean by an "accessible" entry?

Easy to get into, especially for people unfamiliar to the franchise

• • "Destructoid felt that it would appease longtime fans and people unfamiliar with the series,[2] and The Games Machine said that it would appeal to players who were not fans of horror media through its simple mechanics" → "Destructoid saw that longtime fans and those unfamiliar with the series would be appeased with the game, while The Games Machine wrote that players previously not fans of the horror genre would be appeased because of its simple mechanics"

Reworded a little to be more in line with the source. Does this work?

Yes. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

• • "worthy adaptation"?

Decided to add a quote from the article instead. Does this look better?

Yes. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

• • "IGN Italy said that it was" – change to present tense

Done

• Third paragraph:
  • "UploadVR said the atmosphere was intriguing and increased the power of the jumpscares, writing that the virtual reality made the game feel immersive" → "UploadVR said the game's atmosphere was intriguing and increased the power of jumpscares, and that virtual reality made the game feel immersive"

Reworded. Does this work?

Yes. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

• • effective, in what sense?

Effective at scaring the player

• Fourth paragraph:
  • I doubt that "the" is needed before "different minigames".

Reworded

• • "The Games Machine called the levels diverse"?

This was a tricky one, but I reworded it. Does the new version make sense? I think I got it more in line with what the reviewer was saying.

Yes, it sounds better. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 20:27, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Support Thanks for addressing my comments. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Support from NegativeMP1

I've done work on every other game in the Five Nights at Freddy's series and conducted several source searches for this article before this FAC at the request of the nom (hell, we nearly co-nom'd), while also reading through it countless times. So knowing the subject matter and what all is out there, I firmly believe that this article clearly meets the FA criteria (though I did choose to wait for Vacant to finish his review before I supported), and I hope that this passes. λ NegativeMP1 07:15, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Source review

For clarification, I am looking at this copy of the article for my source review. My comments are below:

• Nintendo Life should be linked in Citation 4. Even though it is a redirect, it would be helpful for readers. I'd also encourage you to link IGN Italia in Citation 6 rather than separating the website out by only linking IGN as the redirect would be more beneficial to readers.

Done

• Is there a reason why Citation 18 uses GamesRadar rather than GamesRadar+?

Changed as suggested

• Destructoid is not linked in Citation 21 even though it seems that the website/publisher is linked in every citation, such as Metacritic being linked in both Citations 24 and 25. Destructoid should be linked in Citation 21 to keep everything consistent with the formatting.

Done

• Titles for non-English citations need a translation. I am seeing this with Citations 1, 3, 6, 8, and 26, but all of the citations should be double-checked to make sure that this is fully addressed.

Translated all the titles I think

Apologies for not being clearer with this one. The original title should be included alongside a translation. You would use the |trans-title= parameter in the citation for that. Just to be clear, the citation should have the original non-English title alongside the English translation (i.e. it should not be a replacement of one for the other). Aoba47 (talk) 23:01, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

• It may be helpful to link European Spanish in the relevant citations. It may just be me, but I have never heard of this phrasing before, and while I obviously get it from context, it may be helpful for readers to have some avenue to look into it further.

Done

You can disregard this one as I do not think such linking works with how the template is set up. Aoba47 (talk) 23:02, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

• Shouldn't the "Sequel" subsection briefly cover the reviews/critical consensus for the sequel?

There sadly isn't a critical consensus on the sequel (no review scores for OpenCritic or Metacritic) so although numerous websites report on the existence of the sequel, I sadly wasn't able to summarize a critical consensus

That makes sense. Thank you for the clarification. Aoba47 (talk) 23:01, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

• This is not required for a FAC/FA, but I would strongly encourage you to archive your web citations to avoid any potential headaches in the future. It seems like most of the citations are archived, but I am bringing this up as Citation 34 is not.

Will do that real quick

• Citation 3 shows for me a publication date of March 14, 2021 rather than March 15, 2021. I know that sometimes depending on where the person accesses a site, the publication date can vary by a day or so. Could you double-check this one for me?

That looks right, fixed

• The "Reception" box in the "Reception" section should list IGN Italia to be more specific and clarify that this review and score were not done by the main IGN website. This should also be clarified in the prose as well (and it should be consistently IGN Italia with IGN Italy removed).

Done

• For the final paragraph of the "Reception" section, I would match the Kotaku and Nintendo Life citations to the appropriate sentences rather than lumping them together at the end. Nintendo Life should also be linked on the first instance in the prose.

Done

• All of the citations are reliable and high-quality and in my opinion, they are appropriate for a potential FA on a video game. I used WP:VG/RS to double-check things and I did not notice any issues.
• I did a brief spot-check to make sure the information is supported in the citations. Citation 2 is being used to support a part on "Night Terrors", but I do not see that phrase in the article. I do see a discussion on a similar mechanic known as "Dark Rooms". Is that what is being referenced?

Yeah I think that was a mistake on my part, I must have confused Dark Rooms with another minigame in Help Wanted with similar mechanics called Night Terrors. Fixed.

• Citation 14 is being used to support a part on the delay in the game's release, but I do not see that discussed in the actual source. I see that citation talks about the April 2019 release, but I do not see any mention of a delay unless I am missing it.

Missed that too. I rephrased it to say that it was planned for release in April, but was initially launched in May. Should I look for another source to confirm the delay if possible?

The current wording should be fine. It is pretty clear that some sort of delay took place as the announced release date did not end up happening. You could look for another source to add the "delay" wording back in the article, but I do not think it is really necessary. Aoba47 (talk) 23:01, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I hope that this review is helpful and best of luck with the FAC. Aoba47 (talk) 20:37, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Aoba47, thanks for the review. A few replies above. Fathoms Below (talk) 22:15, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for addressing everything. I have left a few comments above. Aoba47 (talk) 23:01, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

@Aoba47 follow-up to the above. Added the translated title parameters. Again, thanks for the review! Fathoms Below (talk) 15:11, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for addressing everything. This passes my source review. I have a quick side question, but does anything from this game tie into the next one (i.e. Five Nights at Freddy's: Security Breach)? Again, this question is more so for me as I am curious and does not affect my review at all. Aoba47 (talk) 16:01, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Not much ties into the next game. Although the plot of all the games and books is loosely connected, the most Help Wanted ties into Security Breach (without getting into excessive detail) is the teaser at the end with the Christmas tree farm and building that is under construction. Fathoms Below (talk) 18:09, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense. Thank you for the response. Aoba47 (talk) 20:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Suggest adding alt text. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:20, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I have added some alt text @Nikkimaria. Anything else needed? Thanks, Fathoms Below (talk) 12:17, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

That's it for the image review. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:47, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Joe

Forthcoming JOEBRO⁶⁴ 00:24, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

TheJoebro64 are you still planning on reviewing this article? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 17:28, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

yeah, have some notes. Should post them later tonight. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 19:06, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

• ... a sequel, Five Nights at Freddy's: Help Wanted 2, was released on December 14, 2023. → Five Nights at Freddy's: Help Wanted 2, was released on December 14, 2023. My general advice is that you don't need to tell the reader something called [Title] 2 is a sequel to [Title]. Readers aren't stupid! I think you can bin "a sequel".

Done

• I think you need to provide sources for the last two paragraphs of the plot section, as I think things like talking about the differences between endings and a change that was made post-launch are the kind of things that go beyond a "straightforward summary" as outlined in WP:VG/PLOT.

I can't find any reliable sources for the endings (the best I could find was a brief mention for the endings of the non-notable Help Wanted 2) I think VGPLOT is saying that sources should be required for any conclusions that must be determined through interpretation, and while I would have liked having some sources for the events of each ending, I don't think there is much that I can do in this case. There are some plot sections in video game FAs that have multiple endings but use only the game as a primary source. However, I can remove the change that was made post-launch with the Christmas tree farm.

• Based on how it's written, I'm not really sure if the stuff about the promo artwork using fan art on accident is necessary. I think it'd be different if it was something within the game itself and/or it impacted the game's long-term reception in the press, but this kind of marketing slip-up isn't really unheard of. If there's more context that could be integrated from the book in question I think that'd be good.

I couldn't find much else in the book, and I could remove that bit if you would like. I just wanted to be comprehensive and it showed up in an academic book, so I thought it wouldn't hurt to include.

• I would try to condense the third paragraph of development and release, as it falls into WP:PROSELINE territory as currently written. Here's something you could do:
  • Current: A Nintendo Switch port was released on May 21, 2020. A port for Oculus Quest was released on July 16, 2020, followed by versions for Android and iOS on October 26. An Xbox One port was released on October 29, 2020.
  • Revised: Ports for other consoles and headsets followed throughout 2020, including for Nintendo Switch on May 21, Oculus Quest on July 16, Android and iOS on October 26, and Xbox One on October 29.

Done, good catch

• In the sequel section, if the game managed to be released on its initially announced release date, then there's no need to state when the date was announced.
  • Current: On May 24, 2023, during a PlayStation Showcase, Steel Wool Studios announced Five Nights at Freddy's: Help Wanted 2, with a planned launch in late 2023. A PlayStation Blog post by Steel Wool Studios on November 20, 2023, announced a release for PlayStation VR2 on December 14, 2023, and disclosed many of the minigames. The game was launched on that date for Oculus Quest and PlayStation VR2.
  • Revised: On May 24, 2023, during a PlayStation Showcase, Steel Wool Studios announced Five Nights at Freddy's: Help Wanted 2. It was released on December 14, 2023, for Oculus Quest and PlayStation VR2.

Will fix soon

• Also, I think you should fill us in on some details regarding the sequel. What's new?

I think I could include a bit on the endings that I found earlier, I will do an extra check to make sure I didn't miss anything important.

• Reference spotchecks forthcoming.

Aoba47 did a few earlier, but you can check again if you would like.

JOEBRO⁶⁴ 03:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Joe for your comments! A few replies above. I'll finish the last couple shortly and then work on Donkey Kong. Sorry for the delay, I just returned to admin work and it's been eating up my time that I would otherwise spend on content. Fathoms Below (talk) 16:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

750h

lead

• that unlock collectable objects ==> "that unlock collectible objects" ("collectible" is preferred in American English)

Done

• studio's adaptation, and decided remove the comma

Done

• as first released on May 28, 2019 for Windows through Oculus Rift add a comma after "2019" per MOS:COMMA

Done

gameplay

• to obtain collectable objects ==> "to obtain collectible objects"

Done

plot

• In an attempt to improve their image, Fazbear Entertainment ==> "In an attempt to improve its image, Fazbear Entertainment". In American English "its" is more standard for singular entities like a company.

Done

• urban legends, before cutting remove the comma

Done

• Following the release of the non-VR versions of the game, a door in a final ==> "Following the release of the non-VR versions of the game, a door at the final"

Done

development and release

• be replaced afterwards ==> "be replaced afterward"

Done

• released on October 23, 2020 and additional add a comma after "2020"

Done

reception

• Wool Studios on November 20, 2023 announced the game's release for PlayStation VR2 on December 14, 2023 and disclosed add a comma after both of the dates.

Done

That's all I got @Fathoms Below:. Nice work on the article. 750h+ 08:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks again 750h+, I believe that I have addressed your comments. Fathoms Below (talk) 18:42, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Happy to support. 750h+ 00:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Crisco

• Would be nice for the lede to have how many games were adapted (average reader isn't going to know how many there were in the series at that point). Seems to be missing in the body too
• the player controls a user for the "Freddy Fazbear Virtual Experience", - A user for the, or of the?
• Meant as a warning for players, they are covertly recorded by one of the playtesters, who exposes a lawsuit involving a past employee of Fazbear Entertainment, Jeremy, that put the game's completion in jeopardy. - Meant to warn players in our reality, or the player character?
• Any sources saying why there was a delay?
• Any Metacritic/other aggregator data for PC and Oculus Rift?
• Is Help Wanted 2 worth redlinking?

That's it from me.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 19:50, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Yugoslav torpedo boat T6

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:49, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

T6 was a dinky little steam-driven torpedo boat that started life as an Austro-Hungarian vessel. She saw extensive service in the Adriatic Sea in the latter stages of WWI, performing convoy, escort, patrol and minesweeping tasks, and anti-submarine operations. After WWI she was taken over by the new South Slav state, the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes – which was renamed Yugoslavia in 1929. She was captured by the Italians during the Axis invasion of Yugoslavia in April 1941, and despite her age the Italians put her to good use on coastal and second-line escort duties in the Adriatic. When the Italians capitulated in September 1943, her crew tried to reach an Allied port, but scuttled her when this proved impossible. This article is part of the 36-article Featured topic, Ships of the Royal Yugoslav Navy, that I am slowing improving to the point where every article and list is Featured (I'm about two-thirds of the way there). Have at it! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:49, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Image review

File:Yugoslav torpedo boat T3.jpg - a reprint of the source just credits the image to "Photo, Official" - could you please explain where the indication is that this is a British official photo, rather than a Yugoslav one?

The answer to this is with reference to the captions of photographs of RN ships in the same book, which have exactly the same annotation, "Photo, Official", whereas French ships for example, have "French Navy, Official" (see page 139 for an example of the latter). I consider it is entirely reasonable to assume that because it does not say "Yugoslav Navy, Official", but uses the same annotation as RN vessels, that it was taken by a RN source (probably the naval attache, or by a RN ship on a show the flag visit). Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

I will also note that the caption doesn't quite work right now - it's technically unsourced since the distinction is never made in this article that T-3 was of the T type instead of the F type. The same source this image is from does include a photo of one of the two-funnel models of these torpedo boats, but it's of much lower quality so I can understand why it is not used. Hog Farm _Talk 23:01, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it is necessary to cite the fact that T3 was a T-group boat as it is very unlikely to be challenged. I could add it and a citation to the caption if you think it is necessary, but it seems like overkill to me. An explanation of the distinction is made per "The F-group had two funnels rather than the single funnel of the T-group" under Description and construction. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

G'day Hog Farm. See what you think of my responses above. Thanks so much for having a look! Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Okay - passing on the image review. Hog Farm _Talk 13:33, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Sammi Brie

Solid article. Paragraphs and sentences occasionally need splitting, and I have some thoughts on commas. Ping me when all of this is handled. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 02:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Lead:

• she was armed with two 66 mm (2.6 in) guns and four 450 mm (17.7 in) torpedo tubes, and could carry 10–12 naval mines One subject: "she". Remove the comma. WP:CINS

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:30, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Background:

• Would a paragraph split be useful?

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:30, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

• In such circumstances, there would be a need for a torpedo boat that could sail from the Austro-Hungarian Navy (German: kaiserliche und königliche Kriegsmarine, Hungarian: Császári és Királyi Haditengerészet) base at the Bocche di Cattaro (the Bocche or Bay of Kotor) to the strait during the night, locate and attack blockading ships and return to port before morning. Consider converting the translation note to a footnote to improve readability in this complex sentence.

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

• as diesels with the necessary power were not available, and the Austro-Hungarian Navy did not have the practical experience to run turbo-electric boats Remove comma as this is part of one clause.

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:09, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Description and construction:

• The 250t-class F-group boats had short raised forecastles and an open bridge, and were fast and agile Remove comma CinS

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

• I'd recommend splitting the first paragraph unless it is like this in other articles of the FT.

Good point, it has become larger over time as more material has become available, and is now a bit unwieldy. I have reorganised it a bit, then split it. See what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

• with the forward gun mounted on the forecastle, and the aft gun on the quarterdeck Remove comma
• with one pair mounted between the forecastle and bridge, and the other aft of the mainmast Remove comma

Both done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

• 93 F was laid down on 9 January 1915, launched on 25 November, and commissioned on 4 April 1916 Remove comma after 25 November to be consistent with this article's non-use of serial comma. (There is one serial comma later that is fine because of the complexity of the phrase)

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Career:

• The original concept of operation for the 250t-class boats was that they would sail in a flotilla at the rear of a cruising battle formation, and were to intervene Remove comma

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• On 29 October she underwent Comma after "29 October" for consistency with the other date prepositional clauses in this paragraph

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• In June, 93, along with 96, and Csikós and her sister ships Wildfang and Velebit were try the comma order In June, 93, along with 96 as well as Csikós and her sister ships Wildfang and Velebit, were

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• During 1917, 93 conducted further minesweeping missions, and escorted 36 convoys. Remove comma before "and" (CinS). Think of it this way. Is the part after the conjunction a standalone sentence conceivably? Not "Escorted 36 convoys.".

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• of Pag, but had to terminate Remove comma.

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• On 20 August, 93 was transferred to the Bocche, and was part of the 1st Torpedo Flotilla Remove comma (CinS)

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• On 29 September, 93 along with 82, 87 and 96, and the Ersatz Triglav-class destroyers Lika, Dukla and Uzsok try On 29 September, 93 along with 82, 87 and 96 plus the Ersatz Triglav-class destroyers Lika, Dukla and Uzsok,

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• As the end of the war approached in November and the Austro-Hungarian Empire broke apart, on 1 November 93 was ceded to the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs Restructure so "1 November 93" is not stuck together and could be mistaken for a date. Splitting the description of the SSCS into its own sentence ("This was...") will help.

I think I have addressed this, perhaps not exactly as you envisaged. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• Skradin where the population begged them to leave the harbour to avoid the town being bombed by the Italians. Add comma after Skradin for readability

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• In response, Kern ordered T6 to escort Perun to the Bay of Kotor, and the two vessels arrived there the next day without incident, where T6's malfunctioning gun was repaired and she was loaded with weapons, supplies and extra men and sent to Šibenik. Split this sentence: In response, Kern ordered T6 to escort Perun to the Bay of Kotor; the two vessels arrived there the next day without incident. There, T6's malfunctioning gun was repaired; she was loaded with weapons, supplies and extra men and sent to Šibenik.

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• the Axis puppet fascist state, the Independent State of Croatia (NDH) try the Independent State of Croatia (NDH), an Axis puppet fascist state

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• T6's commander, a Slovene, was not interested in serving in a Croatian navy, and abandoned Remove comma after "navy" CinS

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• join NDH navy missing "the"

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

G'day Sammi Brie, all done I reckon. See what you think? Thanks for taking a look, apologies for the delay in addressing your comments. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

• Happy to Support after taking a look. My issues are rectified. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 02:32, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments by Pendright

Placeholder - Pendright (talk) 03:10, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

PM - I seem to be awash in projects, so for now I'm wiggling out of this one—my apology. Pendright (talk) 23:20, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Matarisvan

Hi Peacemaker67, my comments:

• Why have we not linked to the Skoda 7 cm gun article in the lead when we have linked to it in the infobox?

Good question. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

• "...Schwarzlose M.7/12 machine gun carried for anti-aircraft work": prefix "carried" with "was" for grammatical accuracy?

Wow, not sure how that got through previous reviews... Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

• In the WWI subsection, "the naval historian Zvonimir Freivogel" is too long, just "Freivogel" may bw enough since he was introduced just two paragraphs ago.

Ah yes, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

• Link to Brijuni islands?

It is already piped to the Fasana Channel, but no harm in linking directly. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

• Link to Strojne Tovarne (Iskra)?

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

• How exactly did the ship make a good impression in Malta? Was it the sailors' conduct, the ship's power or something else?

Presumably the sailor's conduct and the appearance of the ship. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:52, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Link to Zablaće (Šabac) or Zablaće (Čačak), whichever one the source is referring to?

It's neither, both those villages are landlocked ones in Serbia. This is a different place, a village on the coast of Croatia. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:52, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• "so took the": "so he took the"?

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:52, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• "join NDH navy": "join the NDH navy"?

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:52, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• In the biblio, link to Norman Friedman and Velimir Terzić?

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:52, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Add 44888337 as the JSTOR ID for Vego 1982?

I'm not a huge fan of adding extra identifiers, the task is to enable verification, not provide every possible option to access it. Unless the MoS has changed and it is now mandatory, I'll stick to one I think. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:52, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• As an aside, would you be ok with adding DOIs for the books? These enable easier access than ISBNs and I faintly recall that there is an MOS on providing as many access options as possible. If you do wish to, then Djukanović 2023 and Ramet 2006 do have DOIs available.

See my response above. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:52, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

That's all from me, will do a source review soon. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 09:14, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look, Matarisvan. See what you think of my responses above. Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:52, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Adding my support, will do spot checks soon. Matarisvan (talk) 06:32, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67, I will not be doing the spot checks since Jo-Jo is already doing a source review. I would suggest you get a review from @Nigel Ish, who's a subject matter expert on ships. Matarisvan (talk) 15:07, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Coordinator comment

Going into five weeks and this nom hasn't garnered a single support. Unless it receives several further in depth reviews over the next week or so it's most likely going to be archived. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 18:57, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Peacemaker67, any progress on the reviews above and below? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 19:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Support from Crisco 1492

• Reserving a spot.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 10:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

• They were the first small Austro-Hungarian Navy boats to use turbines, - Previous sentence had "Austro-Hungarian Navy", which may be misunderstood as "They". Perhaps "The 250t class"?

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• On 11 May 1917, 93 F, 96 F and 78 T, accompanied by the Huszár-class destroyer Csikós, unsuccessfully pursued the British submarine HMS H1 after the submarine had stalked 78 T off Pola, missing her with two torpedoes. - Feels like this could be simplified. Perhaps "after the submarine had fired two torpedoes at 78 T"?

Have had a crack at simplifying, see what you think now. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• Bojana river - As a proper noun, shouldn't this be Bojana River? Same with Brijuni islands and Istrian peninsula

Done. Not sure how that happened. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• World War I - Question... I thought World War I was preferred in American English, with First World War preferred in British English.

It's written in Australian English, and we don't mind (both are used). Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• When the navy was formed, she and the other seven 250t-class boats were the only modern sea-going vessels in the KM - Would "were its only modern sea-going vessels" work better?

Sure, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:51, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• I'm not seeing consistency in your use of the Oxford comma.

It really isn't consistent in Australia, the government style guide says only to use it when ambiguity is created by its absence. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:51, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• Bay of Kotor - You referred to it as Bocche earlier. Why the shift?

Change of usage over time. Generally the Italian usage was most common in WWI, but in Yugoslav times, it was referred to as the Bay of Kotor. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:51, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Overall, the prose is quite tight. Well done! — Chris Woodrich (talk) 10:54, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look, Chris. Sorry about the delay. See what you think of my responses. Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:51, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• Looks good. Thank you! — Chris Woodrich (talk) 13:31, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley

• "second-line escort duties". What does "second-line" mean here? This needs explaining.

Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• I cannot see an explanation. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

• I've separated and clarified the explanation. See what you think. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• "Kraljevska Mornarica, KM". Not "Kraljevska Mornarica (KM)"?

Well, it's already in parens, and the semicolon associates them sufficiently, IMHO. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• "New torpedo tubes of the same size". Presumably the same as the old ones but this should be clarified.

Correct, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• "accompanied the light cruiser Dalmacija, the submarine tender Hvar and the submarines Hrabri and Nebojša". New KM ships? As you say above that originally there were only eight ships in the KM navy you should clarify.

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• I find the second paragraph of WWII confusing. Šibenik Command was presumably a naval command of the NDH, so why should it need to be evacuated and why did Italy capture the boats of its Fascist ally?

It is the KM Šibenik Command (added). The Italians did not approve of the NDH having a navy, and the Germans acquiesced in this until the Italians surrendered in September 1943. Do you think I need to explain this? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• "but T6 was captured by the Italians along with the other boats of the division". Maybe "but the Italians opposed NDH having a navy and they captured the boats of the division including T6". Dudley Miles (talk) 15:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks, yes. Good idea, done, and added a citation for the Italian opposition. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:27, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• There is a CS1 maint error notice on the Freivogel ref. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:14, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Not sure of what this is? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• The message on the last Freivogel source is "CS1 maint: ignored ISBN errors". Dudley Miles (talk) 15:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

• Jo-Jo identified this too, and I discovered I had reversed two numbers. Should be fixed now. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:27, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look, Dudley. See what you think of my responses. Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

OK, should be good to go now, Dudley. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:27, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Looks fine now. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Source review

Source formatting seems consistent. 978-953-366-036-9 throws an ISBN error. Is there a logic behind using Google Books for some sources, OCLC and ISBN for others? None of the sources seem to be inappropriate. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:17, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Jo-Jo Eumerus, thanks for taking a look. Somehow I'd reversed two numbers. Fixed now, I hope. In terms of Google Books etc, I generally use Google Books if the book is available in preview and the link might help with verification, and always use either the OCLC or ISBN\ISSN with each long citation. I can't say I'm a huge fan of adding OCLC and ISBN, seems like overkill to me. Generally I use whatever was the system at the time of publication, for a long time Yugoslav books only had OCLCs, and both of the OCLC books are Yugoslav. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC)